Frameworks and Standards
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23-02-2012, 09:49 AM
Frameworks and Standards
Question coming later, be patient. :-)

Background:
I am a lecturer in Service Management and Governance Best Practices (mainly around IT) and when I'm feeling playful (=obnoxious) I often ask my obviously religious audience whether their book is a framework or a standard.

When I say "obviously religious", I mean that I'm in Indonesia or Malaysia and the delegates are wearing, er, headgear.

It's relevant to the course because I need them to know the difference so to explain to those here that might not know: a standard is about "compliance" and contains words like "shall" and "should", whereas a framework is purely for guidance so "compatible" is a better word for what is aimed for.

Example:
The dashed white lines in the middle of the road are for guidance but the double yellow lines at the side of the road are supposed to be complied with (I think most countries have this system but if not, double yellow = no parking). In the UK they also have double red lines (around e,g, hospital entrances and exits) which means "NO FUCKING PARKING EVER or we will confiscate your children" (or something like that). This means that although both double yellow and double red both = no parking, yellow = you should not park and red = thou shall not park.

So,
when in a tussle with a muslim or xian friend who claims the word of god is their guidance or it's the book they live by, I ask if that means they approve of slavery etc. and they say no they just go by the "good bits".

I bet you see where this is going... it ends up with something like "if it's really the word of god, shouldn't you be complying with all of it?"

The frameworks (guidelines) and standards I teach (ITIL, COBIT, PRINCE2, ISO20000 etc) are continually being updated as new wisdom develops and, if I can use the phase, new morality is accepted.

Modern morality / ethics have evolved beyond that of the morality of the "good" books and common sense leads most believers to follow modern morality and so keep "faith" with their book's good bits and (in my experience) often completely unaware of the immoral/unethical bits.

At last, the question:
How do you deal with those (from the merely ignorant to the scarily fanatic) who think their book is a Standard?
And, for those who consider their books to be frameworks (guidebooks only) is it just better to leave them in their comfort zone?

Cheers
DLJ
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23-02-2012, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 23-02-2012 10:09 AM by lucradis.)
RE: Frameworks and Standards
You're funny and you have a nice method of writing.

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Guess I should try and answer at least one Of your questions.
As for the people who only use the good parts and ignore the bad, who use it more as a comfort blanket, I say now just leave them be so long as they aren't forcin it down their kids throats without teaching them to at least try critical thinking. And how do we decide such a thing without at first knowing the person in question? I dunno.

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23-02-2012, 11:02 AM
RE: Frameworks and Standards
Sorry DLJ. I'd like to respond, but cannot deal with the above. Maybe later....

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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23-02-2012, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 23-02-2012 11:11 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Frameworks and Standards
(23-02-2012 11:02 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  Sorry DLJ. I'd like to respond, but cannot deal with the above. Maybe later....

When you say "above" do you mean lucradis's wierd gif? I'm having a small trauma over that too!
(23-02-2012 09:56 AM)lucradis Wrote:  You're funny and you have a nice method of writing.

Guess I should try and answer at least one Of your questions.
As for the people who only use the good parts and ignore the bad, who use it more as a comfort blanket, I say now just leave them be so long as they aren't forcin it down their kids throats without teaching them to at least try critical thinking. And how do we decide such a thing without at first knowing the person in question? I dunno.

Good point. It's a general question so I welcome all viewpoints but in my case, I am thinking specifically about friends whose circumstances I am aware of i.e. they are passing on the bollocks to their kids.
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23-02-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Frameworks and Standards
For me:

1) The Bible isn't a science book.
2) The Bible never claims to be inerrant.
3) The Bible claims divine inspiration.
4) The Bible's purpose is to be instructions for His elect.
5) The Bible is about the covenant He made with humanity.
6) The Bible is written in a way that communicates in the easiest form to its original intended audience.
7) Literal inaccuracies in the Bible reflect the understanding of the world during that time. God's purpose wasn't about correcting those inaccuracies because they were not relevant to His message and instructions to His people. God had already designed a way for humans to understand those inaccuracies (evolution); however, it wasn't time for their realization.

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23-02-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: Frameworks and Standards
(23-02-2012 11:14 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  For me:

1) The Bible isn't a science book.
2) The Bible never claims to be inerrant.
3) The Bible claims divine inspiration.
4) The Bible's purpose is to be instructions for His elect.
5) The Bible is about the covenant He made with humanity.
6) The Bible is written in a way that communicates in the easiest form to its original intended audience.
7) Literal inaccuracies in the Bible reflect the understanding of the world during that time. God's purpose wasn't about correcting those inaccuracies because they were not relevant to His message and instructions to His people. God had already designed a way for humans to understand those inaccuracies (evolution); however, it wasn't time for their realization.

1. Nor are the frameworks I mentioned
2. The Quran does and Islam is the official mindslave of many of the places I work (Thomas Hobbes would have been proud)
3. Exactly, which would imply that the rules therein must be obeyed to the letter, no?
4. Instructions that need to be complied with or instructions as guidance only?
5. I think it was just the Jews... other "god-fearers" were only permitted to join the club some time after it was written. But I'll let that one slide.
6. Exactly. So as with modern International frameworks and standards it should get an update for modern readers, agreed?
7. So, is it time now?

Thanks for the considered reply.

Cheers
DLJ
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23-02-2012, 12:05 PM
RE: Frameworks and Standards
Great post DLJ! That's a new way to look at it, at least for me. It's interesting how the "good parts" used always seem to coincide with the current trend in society's morals/ethics. To me it highlights how morality evolves with society and that the Bible is simply used as justification for certain societal trends. Unfortunately that justification acts as a nail to try to pin morality to its current state rather than allow it to remain fluid.

Oh, and Lucradis... that gif... freakin' hilarious. Big Grin

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23-02-2012, 12:52 PM
RE: Frameworks and Standards
(23-02-2012 11:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  3. Exactly, which would imply that the rules therein must be obeyed to the letter, no?
4. Instructions that need to be complied with or instructions as guidance only?

It depends on the intended audience. Instructions from God are relative. The Hebrews were instructed differently than Church Age believers.

Quote:6. Exactly. So as with modern International frameworks and standards it should get an update for modern readers, agreed?

Additions to the canon, no. Modern translations, yes.

Quote:7. So, is it time now?

Our understanding of God is constantly evolving as He reveals more and more to us about His creation and plan.

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23-02-2012, 01:36 PM
RE: Frameworks and Standards
(23-02-2012 12:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Additions to the canon, no. Modern translations, yes.

So what's to stop the extremists following the immoral (by today's standards) bits that are still in the modern translations?

Do you also hold the same opinion regarding the Quran?

Cheers
DLJ
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23-02-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: Frameworks and Standards
(23-02-2012 01:36 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So what's to stop the extremists following the immoral (by today's standards) bits that are still in the modern translations?

That is a legitimate problem. I do not have the answer to that.

Quote:Do you also hold the same opinion regarding the Quran?

No. I do not believe it is the inspired Word of God.

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