Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
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24-05-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(24-05-2016 11:56 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  You're kind of comparing cases which are apples and oranges to each other. In addition we have all of the facts established in the hypothetical scenario you suggest vs a lot of unknowns in the Freddie Gray case. Finally, you suggest that, as a result of individual civil or criminal misconduct the public demand an entire department should be shut down vs adjudicating the individual malefactors for their actions.

If, however, there are a lot of unknowns to be established by the courts, the answer becomes the old lawyer saw of 'Well, it depends.....' It could go either way IF AND ONLY IF all the facts of the case align a certain way with the laws and regulations governing this scenario.

Not really apples and oranges. More like reality and analogy. I accept that my hypothetical analog is not perfect. Neither is it far afield.

Institutions that take agency away from individuals have a duty of care to those people. In the reaI case of Freddy Gray, that duty of care was so egregiously abandoned that Freddy died within hours. The police are responsible for that in a moral, human sense. Frankly the courtroom details of whether proof met standards of "reasonable suspicion" or "beyond reasonable doubt" or whatever don't influence my opinion. Police killed Freddy Gray by locking him in a metal box and rattling him until dead. The practice by which Freddy died is not uncommon and is ongoing. Maybe it hasn't resulted in death since then... Or maybe it has, and we haven't heard about it. I can't tell.

I am not trying to say that the court's decision is wrong according to the court's own rules. I am saying that Freddy's death was wrong, and the cops killed him.
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24-05-2016, 09:44 PM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(24-05-2016 10:02 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Show me a police officer who has gotten away with murder.

This statement is ridiculous on its face. You can never provide an example because without a conviction you never have the proof of a murder.

But, consider this: last year there was a story out of South Carolina about a cop who shot a man in the back. The cop pulled him over, the guy got out of the car and ran, and the cop pulled his gun and shot him. He then handcuffed him and let him bleed todeath. There was no evidence ever introduced to suggest the guy was violent or posed any threat to the community. We know this is what happened because some passers-by happened to record the whole thing. The cops version was very different.

The cops version was the guy was violent and after he was shot they called an ambulance and administered CPR. The video, however, shows the version the police told was complete bullshit. The cop in question was indicted for murder.

Now, suppose no one filmed the whole event. How do you think this would have gone? You think there is a chance the police don't get the benefit of the doubt? I don't. Do you think the one time something like this happens it was recorded? I don't.

Minorities, and especially African Americans. Have been claiming this stuff happens for decades. Now we are finally seeing evidence. That doesn't mean that every claim of police abuse is legitimate. But, equally, I think it's fair to assume not every claim is invalid. The likelihood is that, in some instances, the police have gotten away with murder. It's almost a certainty.

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25-05-2016, 04:37 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(24-05-2016 09:44 PM)BnW Wrote:  [...] The likelihood is that, in some instances, the police have gotten away with murder. It's almost a certainty.

Earlier on, I asked Minimalist to cite evidence for his claim that police had got away with murder, but he couldn't do so. Now you've made a similar claim.

Can you please cite your evidence?

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25-05-2016, 04:52 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
It is impossible to provide evidence for that. It's a ridiculous request. The point is that over the decades there have been hundreds, maybe thousands, of claims by minority groups of the police shooting when there was no cause. The probability that the only time it was true was the instances where it was recorded is zero.

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25-05-2016, 05:00 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(25-05-2016 04:37 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Earlier on, I asked Minimalist to cite evidence for his claim that police had got away with murder, but he couldn't do so. Now you've made a similar claim.

Can you please cite your evidence?

BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT

Quote:
When a handcuffed Freddie Gray was placed in a Baltimore police van on April 12, he was talking and breathing. When the 25-year-old emerged, "he could not talk and he could not breathe," according to one police official, and he died a week later of a spinal injury.

But Gray is not the first person to come out of a Baltimore police wagon with serious injuries.

Relatives of Dondi Johnson Sr., who was left a paraplegic after a 2005 police van ride, won a $7.4 million verdict against police officers. A year earlier, Jeffrey Alston was awarded $39 million by a jury after he became paralyzed from the neck down as the result of a van ride. Others have also received payouts after filing lawsuits.

[quote][i]For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" — an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.


Quote:The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.

Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.

Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.

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25-05-2016, 06:49 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(25-05-2016 04:37 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 09:44 PM)BnW Wrote:  [...] The likelihood is that, in some instances, the police have gotten away with murder. It's almost a certainty.

Earlier on, I asked Minimalist to cite evidence for his claim that police had got away with murder, but he couldn't do so. Now you've made a similar claim.

Can you please cite your evidence?

If your point is that there is a contradiction in the phrase "got away with murder," in that the legal charge of murder isn't proven until there's a conviction and thus "got away with" doesn't apply, fine. I suppose you could make that semantic distinction. It applies to everyone though. By that logic, no one has ever "gotten away with murder." Congrats on finding a small inconsistency in a common English phrase.

That phrase still refers to a real set of similar circumstances. What term would you prefer for a willful, intentional killing which is unjustified by the reasonable person standard, and which neither serves public interest nor protects any person?

There's this though: trying to argue semantics by demanding evidence of the definition you deny is valid is a sideshow, not a reasoned discussion. You can offer your preferred phrase for what we're talking about, but you can't claim we're not talking about anything because you don't like the words.
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25-05-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(24-05-2016 09:44 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 10:02 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Show me a police officer who has gotten away with murder.

This statement is ridiculous on its face. You can never provide an example because without a conviction you never have the proof of a murder.

But, consider this: last year there was a story out of South Carolina about a cop who shot a man in the back. The cop pulled him over, the guy got out of the car and ran, and the cop pulled his gun and shot him. He then handcuffed him and let him bleed todeath. There was no evidence ever introduced to suggest the guy was violent or posed any threat to the community. We know this is what happened because some passers-by happened to record the whole thing. The cops version was very different.

The cops version was the guy was violent and after he was shot they called an ambulance and administered CPR. The video, however, shows the version the police told was complete bullshit. The cop in question was indicted for murder.

Now, suppose no one filmed the whole event. How do you think this would have gone? You think there is a chance the police don't get the benefit of the doubt? I don't. Do you think the one time something like this happens it was recorded? I don't.

Minorities, and especially African Americans. Have been claiming this stuff happens for decades. Now we are finally seeing evidence. That doesn't mean that every claim of police abuse is legitimate. But, equally, I think it's fair to assume not every claim is invalid. The likelihood is that, in some instances, the police have gotten away with murder. It's almost a certainty.

The North Charleston police officer in the case above is on trial for murder. No they don't get away with murder because an officer is acquitted of the crime in certain cases. There are specific legal standards which have to be met in order to obtain a murder conviction, and not simply a dead body.

In the case of Gray, it appears as though he was shackled in the van in a manner which was unsafe and caused a risk of fall due to typical driving maneuvers. If a driver had to brake hard or swerve to avoid something, there was certainly a risk of injury. This strikes me a more of a negligent homicide case (criminal) or wrongful death (civil) than intentional murder. That 'depraved heart murder charge is crap and apparently the jury thought so as well.

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25-05-2016, 08:32 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(25-05-2016 07:11 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  That 'depraved heart murder charge is crap and apparently the jury thought so as well.

I don't think there was a jury in this case. It was, I read earlier, a bench trial.


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25-05-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
(25-05-2016 07:11 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The North Charleston police officer in the case above is on trial for murder. No they don't get away with murder because an officer is acquitted of the crime in certain cases. There are specific legal standards which have to be met in order to obtain a murder conviction, and not simply a dead body.

I'm aware of the legal standards, TYVM. My point is that prior to the days of video evidence, there was rarely ever a trial. A cop shot a black kid, offered an explanation, and that was generally the end of it. Again, the probability that all those shootings were legit and the only ones that were not just happened to be the ones that were recorded are about zero.

Regarding the Gray case, the issue isn't whether or not you can convict these cops of first degree murder is irrelevant. The issue is that there behaviour was criminal, it was part kg a pattern of behaviour, someone died because of their behaviour, and at keasy some of them are now walking away with zero accountability. There doesn't need to be a murder conviction for their to be justice.

On the issue of black on black crime - so what? That is not at all relevant to the responsibilities and expectations of the police.

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25-05-2016, 09:36 AM
RE: Freddy Gray trial: Cop Not Guilty
Pardon my phone typing. Hopefully you followed the above.

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