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29-01-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: Free Choice
(29-01-2013 11:43 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Evolution doesn't exist. It's a concept used to describe how humans (and other life forms) became what we are today.
So if you think science is wrong, what's your replacement theory?

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29-01-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Free Choice
(29-01-2013 11:43 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Evolution doesn't exist. It's a concept used to describe how humans (and other life forms) became what we are today.


That doesn't make any sense. Could you clarify, please? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-01-2013, 06:52 PM
RE: Free Choice
Can anyone bring me an evolution? Can you drive me to where one is? Can you show me a picture of a family with no people in it? A forest with no trees in it?

These are all concepts that we use to describe groups of things or processes. Concepts don't exist, only the things they describe exist.


To put my words into context, although they can be read above... I asked who taught us to speak and use logic. The answer was:

"Evolution. Nowadays, parents and society."

Evolution didn't invent language and then go teach it to people because evolution doesn't exist. People who are the result of the process we now call evolution invented languages and then began to teach them to their children.

Make sense now?
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29-01-2013, 07:20 PM
RE: Free Choice
(29-01-2013 06:52 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Can anyone bring me an evolution? Can you drive me to where one is? Can you show me a picture of a family with no people in it? A forest with no trees in it?

These are all concepts that we use to describe groups of things or processes. Concepts don't exist, only the things they describe exist.


To put my words into context, although they can be read above... I asked who taught us to speak and use logic. The answer was:

"Evolution. Nowadays, parents and society."

Evolution didn't invent language and then go teach it to people because evolution doesn't exist. People who are the result of the process we now call evolution invented languages and then began to teach them to their children.

Make sense now?
Obviously we can't 'bring you an evolution', evolution is the theory of a process not a physical object. You can however look at evidence of the process. The theory helps explain events that lead to the complexity of life now, a history of events, that actually did happen. So no evolution does not exist as you say but the theory of evolution is sound and the process is clear in nature.

Parent organisms would pass on their genes including their meme's. Long story short this lead to more complex organisms with more complex behaviours and traits such as speech. I believe this is what he meant when he told you evolution as his answer.

So no evolution did not 'invent' language, but the process lead to the creation of it. That make sense?

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29-01-2013, 09:20 PM
RE: Free Choice
Thanks for the explanation but yer preaching to the choir. I understand evolution and how it facilitated the invention of human language. And, I agree with it.

This thread is about free will, the opposite position being that everything we do in life is fore ordained by our past experiences. If that's true and we hadn't experienced language before it was invented, it stands to reason (to me, at least) that we wouldn't invent it since we can't do anything that isn't fore ordained by our past experiences.... which at some point in history, didn't include any experience of language. Thus, the reason why I asked who taught us language.

I hope that clears up the confusion but if not, I'll try to be more precise.
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29-01-2013, 09:50 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2013 09:59 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Free Choice
(29-01-2013 09:20 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Thanks for the explanation but yer preaching to the choir. I understand evolution and how it facilitated the invention of human language. And, I agree with it.

This thread is about free will, the opposite position being that everything we do in life is fore ordained by our past experiences. If that's true and we hadn't experienced language before it was invented, it stands to reason (to me, at least) that we wouldn't invent it since we can't do anything that isn't fore ordained by our past experiences.... which at some point in history, didn't include any experience of language. Thus, the reason why I asked who taught us language.

I hope that clears up the confusion but if not, I'll try to be more precise.
That makes more sense. I see what your getting at.

Language didn't just pop up all of a sudden out of nowhere, things tend not to do that. Much like everything else in evolution it would have been progressive. It may have started out with a grunt to get the attention of individuals nearby, then you add in different pitches for different situations, different lengths and intensity of sound for importance, ext.
The evolution of language was probably accompanied by physical changes as well, like changes in the vocal cord.
The slight variations in communication would be passed down by the parents generation after generation.

Even if the world is entirely deterministic there is a first for everything. The existence of something is not a prerequisite for it's own existence, that doesn't make sense.

A + B may lead to C
But C can't result in C before C exists, that's a paradox.

A = the evolution of a physiological trait such as vocal cords
B = a need to pass information between members of a species as a survival advantage. E.g. like informing fellow apes the toxicity or yuckiness of a piticular berry.
C = Language

A with B have potential to lead to C

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29-01-2013, 09:57 PM
RE: Free Choice
"The existence of something is not a prerequisite for it's own existence,~"

Agreed. But invention requires thinking of that which we haven't experienced. Grunts and gestures aren't a good example of invention, as they're pretty much innate as far as I understand. Speech, however, is complicated and structured.
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29-01-2013, 10:03 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2013 10:07 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Free Choice
(29-01-2013 09:57 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "The existence of something is not a prerequisite for it's own existence,~"

Agreed. But invention requires thinking of that which we haven't experienced. Grunts and gestures aren't a good example of invention, as they're pretty much innate as far as I understand. Speech, however, is complicated and structured.
Grunts would lead to different grunts
which would lead to more specialized grunts
which would lead to...

Imagine a ape coming up with a system that containted one unit of information, like a letter: A.
The invention of such a thing would be more useful the more letters they add the the system.
Each letter could relate to a specific individual, fruit, predator, it doesn't matter.
Information and the transfer of information is power.

I don't know each step exactly, It's just the result of a progression of minor changes that were all most likely evolutionarily advantageous. It isn't that hard to grasp?

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29-01-2013, 10:26 PM
RE: Free Choice
The letter A, as it's what you used in your example, is easy enough to sound out but, it has a distinctive shape when written. Of course, the first "letter" in the first human language undoubtedly was not an A as we know it today but, it was none the less a distinct character with respect to the other characters of the first written language.
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29-01-2013, 10:41 PM
RE: Free Choice
(29-01-2013 10:26 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  The letter A, as it's what you used in your example, is easy enough to sound out but, it has a distinctive shape when written. Of course, the first "letter" in the first human language undoubtedly was not an A as we know it today but, it was none the less a distinct character with respect to the other characters of the first written language.
It doesn't matter, the point was to get you to understand how something like this comes about. Small progressive changes.

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