Free Choice
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18-12-2012, 06:44 AM
Free Choice
What is Free Choice? Does it exist?

If it does exist, is there a historical trajectory of free choice? In other words, does accumulating more "free choices" make one more free?

Let's look at an example of choice:

Does the ability to choose a master make one less of a slave if most of the other conditions remain?

When slaves in the U.S. were freed or not termed as slaves anymore, they had the ability to choose who they worked for, however the only people they could choose from were the same people that profited off of their labor before when they were bondage slaves, and at this point wage slavery was cheaper than the older form of bondage slavery.

So does this choice, to choose ones master or to choose the person that is going to exploit you make one more free than if one didn't have that ability?

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24-12-2012, 09:24 AM
RE: Free Choice
Free will is a pipedream.
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26-12-2012, 03:48 PM
RE: Free Choice
(18-12-2012 06:44 AM)I and I Wrote:  What is Free Choice? Does it exist?

If it does exist, is there a historical trajectory of free choice? In other words, does accumulating more "free choices" make one more free?

Let's look at an example of choice:

Does the ability to choose a master make one less of a slave if most of the other conditions remain?

When slaves in the U.S. were freed or not termed as slaves anymore, they had the ability to choose who they worked for, however the only people they could choose from were the same people that profited off of their labor before when they were bondage slaves, and at this point wage slavery was cheaper than the older form of bondage slavery.

So does this choice, to choose ones master or to choose the person that is going to exploit you make one more free than if one didn't have that ability?

Drinking Beverage
Of course it's a greater freedom, how is that any different from the current employment and democratic system? Tongue
Anyway, you mix together two things. Relative and absolute freedom. Absolute freedom does not exist, btw.

Seriously said, we live in a causal world. By definition, everything in this world must have a historical trajectory. A truly free choice would be non-causal, therefore impossible. This is why such a definition of free choice would be unrealistic and unfair.
This is why I recognize only a realistic freedom of choice or free will. I roughly divide a personality on two main factors, conscious and unconscious. The conscious are based on (self-)awareness and most importantly, on discipline - dominance of the conscious will. Unconscious factors are all kinds of conditioning of the environment, of biology, society, upbringing and of course desires and wants that are not results of our conscious planning and intention.
By definition, only a disciplined person can be free. Even if someone is free from iron shackles, he can still be a slave to his inner desires and fears and other conditioning. That part of us capable of freedom is our discipline, our ability to plan in the future in our greatest good and to favor long term benefit over the short term. This disciplined part is truly free, because:
- it is conscious/intentional
- it comes from within the person.
These are the two basic requirements.
It may be limited and predictable, but it can be realistically said that it is still a free choice. This is very important, because someone who is not a master over himself, should still have some kind of shackles on him, even if they're invisible and society-based. Only a very advanced, perfected person would be able to sustain absolute freedom without damage to himself and the society. Most of us have some roughly equal ratio of conscious/unconscious will within us.
This definition of free will gives us a useful sociological and philosophical knowledge, so thereby I declare it the right definition Tongue

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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26-12-2012, 03:53 PM
RE: Free Choice



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26-12-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: Free Choice
(18-12-2012 06:44 AM)I and I Wrote:  What is Free Choice? Does it exist?

No.

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27-12-2012, 10:11 PM
RE: Free Choice
What's the difference between a rock and a human?
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27-12-2012, 10:35 PM
RE: Free Choice
(27-12-2012 10:11 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  What's the difference between a rock and a human?
Humans live, rocks don't. Drinking Beverage

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27-12-2012, 10:39 PM
RE: Free Choice
(27-12-2012 10:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(27-12-2012 10:11 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  What's the difference between a rock and a human?
Humans live, rocks don't. Drinking Beverage
I was thinking more along the lines of "If I take a piss on a rock, it won't chase me down the street and beat me for urinating on it."

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28-12-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Free Choice
(27-12-2012 10:39 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(27-12-2012 10:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Humans live, rocks don't. Drinking Beverage
I was thinking more along the lines of "If I take a piss on a rock, it won't chase me down the street and beat me for urinating on it."
You can have safe sex with a rock...but not a human.

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28-12-2012, 08:56 PM
RE: Free Choice
I take the brilliant response that Chritopher Hitchens used to answer this question: "I have no choice but to assume that I do" (have free will).

On the other hand neursocientists like Sam Harris and physicists like Michio Kaku say that the evidence seems to imply that we don't have free will. According to neuroscience, thoughts arise in our brain several seconds before we are conscious of them, so we don't have absolute control over them. Michio Kaku also agres with that position. He says that modern physics proof that the future in a strange way "already exists" so the thought that you will have in one year at 3:00 p.m. is already determined.

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