Free Healthcare
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28-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Free Healthcare
In a Skype convo the other night I was discussing healthcare with a few other TTA members.

Being British, I live in a country that provides free healthcare to all. There are private healthcare companies you can sign up for but the vast majority of people choose to stick with NHS cover. In America there isn't free national healthcare. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can defend this. Surely all supposed first-world countries should provide healthcare for their citizens? Surely it should be a basic right? The idea that someone who has cancer should be left to die if they can't afford treatment is abhorrent to me. The idea of two parents working round the clock to desperately try and fund healthcare for their ill child is ridiculous to me.

Given that America doesn't have free national healthcare though there must be decent opposition to it from somewhere. So, has anyone got any decent arguments against it (other than being wealthy and a terrible human being)?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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28-08-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
Musing:
There are immense tax breaks, subsidies, and loopholes if fixed would be a huge source of income.
There are immense expenses if cut would further create a huge source of wealth.

But here's the problem. For something like that to happen, an incredible amount of powerful and wealthy people and organizations would have to let it happen. That's not likely in any foreseeable future.

Back on topic:
So, if you want a large allocation of money from the population - tax money set aside for healthcare - we'll see the same old corruption. Doctors or agencies over pricing treatments in order to suck as much money from the government as possible. And we'll have established and new organizations popping up with the very goal of sucking as much money from the healthcare cash pool and allocating it to other projects or subsidies for people or businesses that don't need it.

But with that said, would the benefits of millions of people getting basic and life saving healthcare be worth the indignity of having millions stolen? Yes...

But should we settle with the thefts? No. We should also catch and smash those thieves fucking faces Beat_stick

We just need more informed, and less apathetic voters. And a big hammer...
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28-08-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
I was the guy he is referring to. My short answer: Healthcare is more efficient and more affordable without government intervention...think pre-medicare and pre-medicaide, so up until the 60's. Even the poor received basic healthcare. It also help prevent pharmaceutical lobbyists from corrupting government. This is partially why you have absurd laws against medical uses of marijuana and the like, but that's a side note. Additionally, I don't feel that anyone is entitled to the professional services of anyone else for personal problems just for existing. Healthcare for those who are unable to do so because of physical and mental deficiencies, sure. Maybe even temporary medical coverage for someone who is on welfare (which needs dramatic reformation as well). Forcing people to buy insurance they can't afford is stupid, hurts the people, and encroaches on a persons personal liberty. In what world does this make sense? Problem: You are too poor to afford healthcare. Answer: Threaten the people to buy healthcare which they cannot afford.

I'd be a little more receptive to America using a different model, but I'd still be against it. We would see something similar to what we have when the government decided to do the same thing with education at the college level. The colleges jacked up the prices and Uncle Sam covered the costs by taking more money from the taxpayers and inflating the dollar by printing money out of thin air behind closed doors with no real oversight.

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28-08-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
No care is "free". Anywhere. There are various arrangements for how the payments are made. People in the US who are not insured receive care. If they can't pay for it, the Medicaid system does. No one is "left out" to die.

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28-08-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
(28-08-2013 02:35 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I was the guy he is referring to. My short answer: Healthcare is more efficient and more affordable without government intervention...think pre-medicare and pre-medicaide, so up until the 60's. Even the poor received basic healthcare. It also help prevent pharmaceutical lobbyists from corrupting government. This is partially why you have absurd laws against medical uses of marijuana and the like, but that's a side note. Additionally, I don't feel that anyone is entitled to the professional services of anyone else for personal problems just for existing. Healthcare for those who are unable to do so because of physical and mental deficiencies, sure. Maybe even temporary medical coverage for someone who is on welfare (which needs dramatic reformation as well). Forcing people to buy insurance they can't afford is stupid, hurts the people, and encroaches on a persons personal liberty. In what world does this make sense? Problem: You are too poor to afford healthcare. Answer: Threaten the people to buy healthcare which they cannot afford.

I'd be a little more receptive to America using a different model, but I'd still be against it. We would see something similar to what we have when the government decided to do the same thing with education at the college level. The colleges jacked up the prices and Uncle Sam covered the costs by taking more money from the taxpayers and inflating the dollar by printing money out of thin air behind closed doors with no real oversight.

In Canada, at least, before public healthcare, we had too many people dying for lack of it, so "even the poor received basic care" was about a million miles from true. Sufficient numbers of voters decided that basic care should be accessible to everyone without cost at point of treatment, and laws were enacted accordingly. Mandatory participation (via taxation) is the best of bad ways to prevent free rider and exploitation issues.

The American system is stupid for several reasons, but the specific problems of that setup are not applicable to the systems in most developed countries...

I mean, for one incredibly obvious point, insurance has nothing to do with providers, it just provides coverage. The providers themselves should (if they're not stupid or corrupt, always an 'if'), compete among themselves on price/quality - because they're still in competition with each other. "Shucks, I guess just pay everything for everyone no matter what" is a stupid policy - but there's a reason no country does this! For another the sheer lobbying power of your pharmaceutical corporations is not a universal immutable reality...

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28-08-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
In my country,some1 who works for the government recieves free medical care(household included). From the ages
0-16 and 60+ you pay usd 25 per month to recieve healtcare(unless your parents are working for the government,then its free). And the healtcare is from the government. Most clinics are rgd(regional healt service)
'murica sucks

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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28-08-2013, 04:12 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
In my country we have free healthcare, but since my country has no money, free healthcare means dirty, ill-equipped hospitals and rude doctors who never have time for you. Plus waiting in lines for ages.

People do die, but mostly because of the lack of drugs and equipment. In short, middle class people usually prefer private hospitals in their time of need. However, thinking there's no free healthcare in the USA makes it sound like a third world country.

And I still don't understand why people have to pay for college there. I always hear people on American tv shows being all "oh, I have no money for college" and it makes me wonder how people can put up with that.

Here it's like, "No money for college? That's alright, it's free! You're poor and have no place to live in in order to study? Here, have this free apartment. What? You don't even have money for food? You can use the free restaurant. Did I mention you have free access to the gym and can have free or ridiculously cheap classes on anything you like such as dancing, singing, theater, foreign languages and sports?"

And of course, when you are a university student, almost all tickets are half the normal price for you. Museums are free. And all that.

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28-08-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
(28-08-2013 04:12 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  And I still don't understand why people have to pay for college there. I always hear people on American tv shows being all "oh, I have no money for college" and it makes me wonder how people can put up with that.

Here it's like, "No money for college? That's alright, it's free! You're poor and have no place to live in in order to study? Here, have this free apartment. What? You don't even have money for food? You can use the free restaurant. Did I mention you have free access to the gym and can have free or ridiculously cheap classes on anything you like such as dancing, singing, theater, foreign languages and sports?"

And of course, when you are a university student, almost all tickets are half the normal price for you. Museums are free. And all that.

where do you live?

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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28-08-2013, 07:34 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
(28-08-2013 01:13 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  In a Skype convo the other night I was discussing healthcare with a few other TTA members.

Being British, I live in a country that provides free healthcare to all. There are private healthcare companies you can sign up for but the vast majority of people choose to stick with NHS cover. In America there isn't free national healthcare. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can defend this. Surely all supposed first-world countries should provide healthcare for their citizens? Surely it should be a basic right? The idea that someone who has cancer should be left to die if they can't afford treatment is abhorrent to me. The idea of two parents working round the clock to desperately try and fund healthcare for their ill child is ridiculous to me.

Given that America doesn't have free national healthcare though there must be decent opposition to it from somewhere. So, has anyone got any decent arguments against it (other than being wealthy and a terrible human being)?

Eh....Your healthcare is not free. You pay for it with your taxes, which in Britian are around 52% of your gross income.

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28-08-2013, 07:41 PM
RE: Free Healthcare
(28-08-2013 07:34 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Eh....Your healthcare is not free. You pay for it with your taxes, which in Britain are around 52% of your gross income.

Calling it 'free' does bug me. But "free at point of service under some conditions" isn't catchy enough.

The highest marginal income tax rate is 45% in the UK, though; where does the 52% figure arise?

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