Free Will
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02-03-2010, 06:15 AM
 
Free Will
If freewill 'causes us to sin', how heroic would God be to stop time turn it back and then obliterate man's free will and finally start the world again? If the idea of free will was a bad one, then how delighted would the you that exists now be with the you that would exist without freewill. Of course in that scenario, you wouldn't be any the wiser; but as a thinking person, you can know now.

You would feel that you had been robbed of your humanity, always to be a droid who must obey its programming. Not to be able to sin, would be not to be human. Being able to sin doesn't mean the inevitability to sin. At the moment, every action is a choice, every second an opportunity to live life to the best or the worst. Growing up responsibly means making right choices, that as children many of us would have done wrong. Without a caring parent to help us, things could have got much worse. Now we make our own decisions. Its inevitable that some freewilled people abuse it; God does not manacle or tag us. We are free to destroy ourself, often not before we have also done damage to other lives.

If that was all, it would be so unfair. If there were no judgement, life would be unjust. God did a heroic thing. Without stopping time and turning it back or taking away our ability to make choices every second of the day, he stepped in. Whilst we were targetted by Gods judgement, God stood in the way of that judgement reaching us and destroying us. He stood there in the appearance of a humble man. He was scorned, hounded, punched and struck, had his beard pulled out, whipped with whips that shattered bone and tore flesh, mocked and crowned with thorns, hung on a cross with criminals. He was treated unfairly so we could be treated much better than we deserve. So we could keep our free will and be wise in the way we use it. So that we could see his love and care for each of us and finally agree that loving him is logical, serving him is reasonable and having faith in him is do-able.
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02-03-2010, 06:47 AM
RE: Free Will
(02-03-2010 06:15 AM)ujcook Wrote:  If freewill 'causes us to sin'

If free will exists.

Quote:how heroic would God be to stop time turn it back and then obliterate man's free will and finally start the world again? If the idea of free will was a bad one, then how delighted would the you that exists now be with the you that would exist without freewill. Of course in that scenario, you wouldn't be any the wiser; but as a thinking person, you can know now.

As I don't believe in free will anyway, I find it difficult to care whether or not an imaginary being wants to go back in time and destroy it.

Quote:If that was all, it would be so unfair. If there were no judgement, life would be unjust.

So? Life isn't fair. Not much we can do about it.

Quote:God did a heroic thing. Without stopping time and turning it back or taking away our ability to make choices every second of the day, he stepped in. Whilst we were targetted by Gods judgement, God stood in the way of that judgement reaching us and destroying us. He stood there in the appearance of a humble man. He was scorned, hounded, punched and struck, had his beard pulled out, whipped with whips that shattered bone and tore flesh, mocked and crowned with thorns, hung on a cross with criminals. He was treated unfairly so we could be treated much better than we deserve.

All of this only applies if we accept the Bible as a legitimate source and if we accept the existence of a god and if we believe in Jesus and if we believe in sin.
HINT: Most atheists don't.

In the other thread, you were asking if you were an atheist or an agnostic. So are you just playing devil's advocate here, or what?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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02-03-2010, 06:56 PM
RE: Free Will
I have been thinking along these lines lately. The way the bible put it, they make the human mind seem to simple. Either god is an idiot, or the bible has a special hook where you can never escape from being a sinner, and much convert to save yourself. Hmmmmm, wonder which one it could be......

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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02-03-2010, 07:00 PM
RE: Free Will
(02-03-2010 06:56 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  I have been thinking along these lines lately. The way the bible put it, they make the human mind seem to simple. Either god is an idiot, or the bible has a special hook where you can never escape from being a sinner, and much convert to save yourself. Hmmmmm, wonder which one it could be......

Both? Tongue

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-03-2010, 02:25 PM
 
RE: Free Will
(02-03-2010 06:47 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(02-03-2010 06:15 AM)ujcook Wrote:  If freewill 'causes us to sin'

If free will exists.

Quote:how heroic would God be to stop time turn it back and then obliterate man's free will and finally start the world again? If the idea of free will was a bad one, then how delighted would the you that exists now be with the you that would exist without freewill. Of course in that scenario, you wouldn't be any the wiser; but as a thinking person, you can know now.

As I don't believe in free will anyway, I find it difficult to care whether or not an imaginary being wants to go back in time and destroy it.

Quote:If that was all, it would be so unfair. If there were no judgement, life would be unjust.

So? Life isn't fair. Not much we can do about it.

Quote:God did a heroic thing. Without stopping time and turning it back or taking away our ability to make choices every second of the day, he stepped in. Whilst we were targetted by Gods judgement, God stood in the way of that judgement reaching us and destroying us. He stood there in the appearance of a humble man. He was scorned, hounded, punched and struck, had his beard pulled out, whipped with whips that shattered bone and tore flesh, mocked and crowned with thorns, hung on a cross with criminals. He was treated unfairly so we could be treated much better than we deserve.

All of this only applies if we accept the Bible as a legitimate source and if we accept the existence of a god and if we believe in Jesus and if we believe in sin.
HINT: Most atheists don't.

In the other thread, you were asking if you were an atheist or an agnostic. So are you just playing devil's advocate here, or what?

You don't believe in free will, so your ways are determined by who or what?
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04-03-2010, 02:27 PM
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 02:25 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You don't believe in free will, so ways are determined by who or what?

What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-03-2010, 05:43 PM
 
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 02:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:25 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You don't believe in free will, so ways are determined by who or what?

What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus.

If you mean by "electrochemical reactions in the brain.." The way that Serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, melatonin, insulin, and prostaglandins among others affects our decision making, moods etc. then I agree. If you are saying that I have no free will because of the way those chemicals interact then show proof.
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04-03-2010, 06:16 PM
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 05:43 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:25 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You don't believe in free will, so ways are determined by who or what?

What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus.

If you mean by "electrochemical reactions in the brain.." The way that Serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, melatonin, insulin, and prostaglandins among others affects our decision making, moods etc. then I agree.

Yep, that's what I mean.

Quote:If you are saying that I have no free will because of the way those chemicals interact then show proof.

The burden of proof is on you again, I'm afraid.
We know that the human brain has deterministic, physical components that follow the law of causality. If you assert that there is a component which is not deterministic and acausal, you must show proof.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-03-2010, 06:53 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2010 07:05 PM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 05:43 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:25 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You don't believe in free will, so ways are determined by who or what?

What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus.

If you mean by "electrochemical reactions in the brain.." The way that Serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, melatonin, insulin, and prostaglandins among others affects our decision making, moods etc. then I agree. If you are saying that I have no free will because of the way those chemicals interact then show proof.

I have a similar belief as Unbeliever, so I'm going to pipe in.

To clarify, I'm speaking on behalf of myself only beyond here, as I don't know Unbeliever extensively, I don't feel comfortable speaking on his behalf.

It's not just chemicals, although they are the muscles of my mind. However, through both nature and nurture our minds are programmed, and even slight changes in either nature or nurture can have very big effects. This is why we see such a large number of different personalities. We are always adding to our programming.

This seems to be a rather foreign concept, so to start smaller, I believe 2 + 2 = 4, and in the same way certain causes working together can only produce one effect. Of course once we get to reality, this gets a lot more complex, but still does not escape the idea that the occurred causes can only produce one effect.

This school of thought is called Determinism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

It's sort of like Predestination(Calvinism) minus god.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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04-03-2010, 07:30 PM
 
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 06:16 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 05:43 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:25 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You don't believe in free will, so ways are determined by who or what?

What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus.

If you mean by "electrochemical reactions in the brain.." The way that Serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, melatonin, insulin, and prostaglandins among others affects our decision making, moods etc. then I agree.

Yep, that's what I mean.

Quote:If you are saying that I have no free will because of the way those chemicals interact then show proof.

The burden of proof is on you again, I'm afraid.
We know that the human brain has deterministic, physical components that follow the law of causality. If you assert that there is a component which is not deterministic and acausal, you must show proof.

I am afraid you need to show proof you made these claims not me "If free will exists, As I don't believe in free will anyway, I find it difficult to care whether or not an imaginary being wants to go back in time and destroy it.What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus. We know that the human brain has deterministic, physical components that follow the law of causality" Those are your claims not mine, so I am asking you to prove what you claim, it's not that hard if you have done your research. We don't know that the human brain is deterministic etc. You made the claim, not me, so prove it!

People of this site, do you see what "Unbeliever" does? He always comments on others claims and asks them for proof. I lead him into making a stand, he made the stand, I said "show proof" like he does for everyone else and he says "The burden of proof is on you again, I'm afraid." This is his pattern, he does not want to make a stand because if does, he has the chance be proven wrong. In my opinion is that is what happens with most agnostic debates, or opinions, or arguments whatever you want to call them. Always put it off on someone who disagrees and make them show proof. "UNBELIEVER" show proof of what you said, stop playing stupid games.
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