Free Will
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17-01-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: Free Will
"No, since this is what I am using to explain the lack of free will."

So your proof (or part of it at least) that we have no free will is that we have a memory?

"Yeah actually I worded that terribly.~"

Brain function doesn't stop when we sleep. Dreams take place in the subconscious and some of them or parts of some of them are retained in the conscious mind when we awake.

"I think if you knew all the variables that effected the conversion from
input to output of a brain, you would know exactly how it would respond
to a specific situation."

We haven't enough evidence to prove or disprove that proposition but let's assume that's true, because it's a major point of contention within this debate. In that case, human beings are nothing more than complex assemblies of carbon, differing from rocks only in that complexity. Further, determinists also argue that complexity doesn't matter, since everything is causal and causality cannot be broken. Thus, if human beings are no different than rocks or lions or daffodils, then what we perceive as choice is merely an illusion... which you've asserted. If we continue this examination of determinism and take it to its logical conclusion, we find that morality, love and virtue are also merely illusions over which we have absolutely no control. e.g. I'm my wife simply because of past experiences in my life, one of which being that not unlike two rocks colliding, we ran into each other at some point and had no choice but to spend the next 27 years together. I might think that I'm with her because we're in love but in reality, we don't have any choice but to be together and thus, love is a mere illusion. As virtue goes... when a man intervenes and saves a woman from being raped, he isn't performing a virtuous act since he is only doing so because of causality. He may think he is scared of being killed by the rapist and he may think he is the hero in this situations but again, reality tells us that he had no choice in the matter and thus, the virtue of his action is illusory. Moreover, getting back to a point I've already made, since there can be no virtue, there can be no vice. Since there can be no love, there can be no hate. Since there is no choice, there can be no responsibility. So in the end, all the things we humans have been doing, from helping others to saving money to inventing new technologies to murdering one another is merely a giant conglomeration of uncontrollable, unchangeable effects of causality. This is the point at which determinists get "religious", in my experience. To clarify, I accept that I cannot understand how or why human consciousness functions. Scientifically, we know it does so we know it exists but, since we don't understand it we must simply say, I don't know. I've never heard a determinist say "I don't know" or, provide a cogent explanation of how human consciousness follows the exact same rules that a rock does but at the same time, defies them (north south dichotomy). I'm not saying it can't be explained away logically and (some day) scientifically, I'm merely saying that I've never heard it.

And yes, how we are raised has an incredible amount to do with who we are as adults. People say this all the time and then they turn around and treat their children like chattel slaves or rented property and then wonder why they turn out the way they do. But that's yet another topic of conversation.

"Since were pointing out things that are irrelivant...

This isn't on the topic of the question of the existence or non-existence of free will.
"


On the contrary, this is the single most relevant affect on humanity writ large in its entire history, if determinism is indeed true.
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Messages In This Thread
Free Will - Adenosis - 15-01-2013, 01:19 AM
RE: Free Will - Ape_Linkin - 15-01-2013, 01:33 AM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 15-01-2013, 01:54 AM
RE: Free Will - Aseptic Skeptic - 15-01-2013, 01:55 AM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 15-01-2013, 03:14 AM
RE: Free Will - ClydeLee - 15-01-2013, 06:35 AM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 15-01-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 15-01-2013, 06:57 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 15-01-2013, 10:53 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 15-01-2013, 11:36 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 16-01-2013, 12:27 AM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 16-01-2013, 01:29 AM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 16-01-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 16-01-2013, 07:05 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 16-01-2013, 08:20 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 17-01-2013 12:04 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 18-01-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 18-01-2013, 09:50 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 18-01-2013, 10:14 PM
RE: Free Will - GirlyMan - 19-01-2013, 12:41 PM
RE: Free Will - kingschosen - 15-01-2013, 04:03 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 15-01-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Free Will - kingschosen - 15-01-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: Free Will - Chas - 15-01-2013, 07:00 PM
RE: Free Will - Bucky Ball - 15-01-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: Free Will - Chas - 16-01-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 16-01-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 18-01-2013, 11:38 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 21-01-2013, 12:07 PM
RE: Free Will - Chaos - 29-01-2013, 05:49 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 29-01-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Free Will - Chaos - 30-01-2013, 04:25 AM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 30-01-2013, 08:13 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 30-01-2013, 08:54 PM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 30-01-2013, 09:02 PM
RE: Free Will - bbeljefe - 31-01-2013, 11:43 AM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 31-01-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: Free Will - Chaos - 31-01-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 31-01-2013, 10:26 AM
RE: Free Will - Chaos - 31-01-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: Free Will - Adenosis - 31-01-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Free Will - fstratzero - 29-01-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Free Will - BryanS - 30-01-2013, 12:34 AM
RE: Free Will - GirlyMan - 21-06-2014, 03:30 PM
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