Free Will

[Ceryle]

I may be using causality and determinism, in a slightly different manner than you; after having reviewed your above post Superman. This is why I included this aspect, of one of my earlier posts.

Similarly, if we look at yesterday, from todays perspective, then we can see that every event that did take place, was guaranteed to have occurred. There simply was no other alternative to what occurred, because it did occur. Tomorrow I could look back upon today, and see that although I had the option of not typing out this message, I in fact did do so; therefore any other possibility of what I could have done is null, because I did not do it; having chosen to type this message instead.

[Unbeliever]

(27-04-2010 05:52 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  What I was speaking of, when I said free will, and the subversion of natural memes, was that although the events that would take place are already frozen in time, be they in the past or future, the range of options that we may choose for those events, is within the range of our subverting capabilities. In other words, we may perform an action, but the potential of the event itself, is only limited by biological, evolutionary, and universal parameters.

Yes, I know. You've said this over and over. What I'm trying to ask is "How far do these limits extend?" What options do you have at any one time? How do you choose one option over another, bearing in mind that this violates causality?

(27-04-2010 06:32 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  I'm with Unbeliever in believing in determinism, insofar that our past experiences help us 'determine' our next decision for a similar situation.

Well, that's not quite what I was saying. They don't just help us determine our actions. They determine our actions entirely.

Quote:However, what about situations that we have never found ourselves in? Unique ones that come up randomly that we have no frame of reference to assist us?

What about them? It's the same as every other situation we find ourselves in: we receive sensory input, this causes and alters electrochemical reactions in our brains, and the brain generates output.

Quote:From a children's perspective, classic examples would be the carelessness that children (toddlers, specifically) display. For example, touching a hot surface, or not holding on to the bannister when climbing down the stairs...these are things our parents teach us how to avoid or teach us the consequences of when they see us about to get hurt.

Yes. All these behaviors are explained by the causality bit that I mentioned previously.

[Ceryle]

I am going to forfeit my argument for the time being. My apologizes, but I will need time to rethink my position.

[Unbeliever]

That's fine. I'm in no hurry.

[supermanlives1973]

(27-04-2010 07:14 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  

(27-04-2010 05:52 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  What I was speaking of, when I said free will, and the subversion of natural memes, was that although the events that would take place are already frozen in time, be they in the past or future, the range of options that we may choose for those events, is within the range of our subverting capabilities. In other words, we may perform an action, but the potential of the event itself, is only limited by biological, evolutionary, and universal parameters.

Yes, I know. You've said this over and over. What I'm trying to ask is "How far do these limits extend?" What options do you have at any one time? How do you choose one option over another, bearing in mind that this violates causality?

(27-04-2010 06:32 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  I'm with Unbeliever in believing in determinism, insofar that our past experiences help us 'determine' our next decision for a similar situation.

Well, that's not quite what I was saying. They don't just help us determine our actions. They determine our actions entirely.

Quote:However, what about situations that we have never found ourselves in? Unique ones that come up randomly that we have no frame of reference to assist us?

What about them? It's the same as every other situation we find ourselves in: we receive sensory input, this causes and alters electrochemical reactions in our brains, and the brain generates output.

Quote:From a children's perspective, classic examples would be the carelessness that children (toddlers, specifically) display. For example, touching a hot surface, or not holding on to the bannister when climbing down the stairs...these are things our parents teach us how to avoid or teach us the consequences of when they see us about to get hurt.

Yes. All these behaviors are explained by the causality bit that I mentioned previously.

My apologies...I realized the error in my statement well after I posted it...

I realized that I forgot to think about WHAT causes a child to touch a hot surface (curiosity) or to climb down the stairs without holding on to the bannister (impatience)...both very big parts of our personalities, which are causation agents.

My bad.

[Unbeliever]

No problem. Trust me, I have seen people come up with stuff way weirder than anything I've heard from anyone on this site. So far, I haven't seen any reason to think that anyone here is crazy or unintelligent. Weird, yes, but still...

[Ceryle]

Lol ^_^

[New Frontier]

Hey, i know this is off topic and has nothing to do with the determenism/free will debate, but is this statement of yours (from the first post in this thread) supposed to be only about the brain and the nervous system, or are you suggesting that this applies to behavior as well?

(26-04-2010 08:55 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Humans are simply stimulus-response machines that work with exceedingly fine levels of stimulus.

[Unbeliever]

(28-04-2010 11:38 PM)New Frontier Wrote:  Hey, i know this is off topic and has nothing to do with the determenism/free will debate, but is this statement of yours (from the first post in this thread) supposed to be only about the brain and the nervous system, or are you suggesting that this applies to behavior as well?

(26-04-2010 08:55 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Humans are simply stimulus-response machines that work with exceedingly fine levels of stimulus.

As the brain and nervous system control behavior, it applies to both.