Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
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13-11-2013, 07:47 AM
Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
A friend responded to a comment I made in a sermon this Sunday where I said, "God did the wrong thing for the right reason in killing Christ." Here's my reponse to his comment:

"Hello my friend,

I was up thinking about your e-mail last night for about an hour. There are several responses I have for you to ponder:

1) You say God is the source of morals, which He is. Are you also implying that if God acts immorally we may not judge Him as immoral? Those are two different ideas. I've rarely been satisfied with the kind of Christians answer to a problem that ends with, "Well, what God here makes zero sense, so I'll leave it there with Him..."

2) Let's set the stage for what I mean by judging God's action, which is actually a comment on His inaction. Not that He did something wrong but that He chose not to act in a given instance with the death of Christ.

a) When God intervenes in a miraculous fashion in the Bible, He does so for three reasons I can discern 1) validate the speaker or preacher as "straight up from God" 2) helping people with real needs 3) providing type and shadow prophecies of Jesus

Two examples of this 1-2-3:

The Reed Sea was parted 1) to confirm Moses's authority as from God 2) helping the Jewish people flee the Egyptians and be delivered from them 3) serve as a type of baptism into Jesus per 1 Cor 10

When Elisha floated an ax head in 2 Kings 6 he 1) was reconfirmed as Elijah's heir and a true prophet 2) returned an ax head to its rightful owner/helped the prophet who lost it 3) created a picture of Christ since if the ax head floats up to meet the stick it may have formed a cruciform shape in the water, and the stick is from a tree like the tree where Christ died, and the ax head represents judgment and cutting the tree, etc.

When God, however, doesn't interact, say, someone is murdered or raped, we can affirm the following:

1) The participants have free will. If a rapist is stopped by God, we can say that the rapist has no free will but the victim does, which is not just--for only 50% of the people in this case to have true free will.

2) We can further say that there is a level playing ground since the Fall and that the rapist and victim alike are sinners.

3) We can also say that God is still using His free will, because He freely decides to let us use our free will, like a parent who chooses to let their children live and learn rather than forcing them to sit still. He's still imposing His free will in His sovereignty, but He's choosing to let us make moral decisions, like a Caesar who instead of going thumbs up or down on a gladiator asks the crowd what their will is instead.

4) We can be encouraged that Hell and Heaven eventually solve all "problems" regarding free will, grace, sin, suffering and judgment. The rapist's victim or murder victim has a chance at Heaven as does the criminal, who might instead be punished in Hell for their sin. People get lost in moral measurements and forget sometimes that even the rape or murder victim, dare I say it, is also a sinner who deserves to go to Hell as well.

Technically speaking, God the Father never condemned Jesus to die but instead chose freely NOT to interfere as sinful priests called for His death (the priests have to sacrifice the lamb) and the Romans then killed Him. But God did not respond with a miracle. If anyone in the history of the world needed a "break" it was Jesus. We both know Jesus loved us and died and rose for us, but what did Jesus do to DESERVE to die? Actually, nothing! He never sinned. He loved others, He always acted rightly, He always healed and helped and exhorted and shared and created.

If we are honest, God is partially responsible when someone is raped or killed by logical extension. The Bible specifically states that likewise, God in His wisdom predetermined to allow Jesus to die for our sakes. He made Him who was utterly without sin to become a sin offering for us. In both cases, rape and Jesus's atonement, God is complicit in not intervening with some kind of miracle.

However, there is no miracle that ever interfered with free will. The Reed Sea was parted. The Jews did not have to cross the sea. The ax head floated. The prophet wanted to get the axe head. Other miracles healed people who were sick, fed people who were hungry, confirmed prophecies, answered prayers.

When God does not stop a rapist or murderer, we must trust that He has plans, and plans within plans within plans, and knows what is best. We can even see that better result if we look for it in most cases. God did NOT intervene to stop the most innocent man ever from being killed for crimes He never committed, but it was in our best interest. Having said all that, it was 100% wrong for Jesus to die for our sin. God allowed other people to do the wrong thing for His right reason. That was probably a better way to put it for Sunday's message.

Thank you."
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13-11-2013, 07:52 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
(13-11-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A friend responded to a comment I made in a sermon this Sunday where I said, "God did the wrong thing for the right reason in killing Christ." Here's my reponse to his comment:

"Hello my friend,

I was up thinking about your e-mail last night for about an hour. There are several responses I have for you to ponder:

1) You say God is the source of morals, which He is. Are you also implying that if God acts immorally we may not judge Him as immoral? Those are two different ideas. I've rarely been satisfied with the kind of Christians answer to a problem that ends with, "Well, what God here makes zero sense, so I'll leave it there with Him..."

2) Let's set the stage for what I mean by judging God's action, which is actually a comment on His inaction. Not that He did something wrong but that He chose not to act in a given instance with the death of Christ.

a) When God intervenes in a miraculous fashion in the Bible, He does so for three reasons I can discern 1) validate the speaker or preacher as "straight up from God" 2) helping people with real needs 3) providing type and shadow prophecies of Jesus

Two examples of this 1-2-3:

The Reed Sea was parted 1) to confirm Moses's authority as from God 2) helping the Jewish people flee the Egyptians and be delivered from them 3) serve as a type of baptism into Jesus per 1 Cor 10

When Elisha floated an ax head in 2 Kings 6 he 1) was reconfirmed as Elijah's heir and a true prophet 2) returned an ax head to its rightful owner/helped the prophet who lost it 3) created a picture of Christ since if the ax head floats up to meet the stick it may have formed a cruciform shape in the water, and the stick is from a tree like the tree where Christ died, and the ax head represents judgment and cutting the tree, etc.

When God, however, doesn't interact, say, someone is murdered or raped, we can affirm the following:

1) The participants have free will. If a rapist is stopped by God, we can say that the rapist has no free will but the victim does, which is not just--for only 50% of the people in this case to have true free will.

2) We can further say that there is a level playing ground since the Fall and that the rapist and victim alike are sinners.

3) We can also say that God is still using His free will, because He freely decides to let us use our free will, like a parent who chooses to let their children live and learn rather than forcing them to sit still. He's still imposing His free will in His sovereignty, but He's choosing to let us make moral decisions, like a Caesar who instead of going thumbs up or down on a gladiator asks the crowd what their will is instead.

4) We can be encouraged that Hell and Heaven eventually solve all "problems" regarding free will, grace, sin, suffering and judgment. The rapist's victim or murder victim has a chance at Heaven as does the criminal, who might instead be punished in Hell for their sin. People get lost in moral measurements and forget sometimes that even the rape or murder victim, dare I say it, is also a sinner who deserves to go to Hell as well.

Technically speaking, God the Father never condemned Jesus to die but instead chose freely NOT to interfere as sinful priests called for His death (the priests have to sacrifice the lamb) and the Romans then killed Him. But God did not respond with a miracle. If anyone in the history of the world needed a "break" it was Jesus. We both know Jesus loved us and died and rose for us, but what did Jesus do to DESERVE to die? Actually, nothing! He never sinned. He loved others, He always acted rightly, He always healed and helped and exhorted and shared and created.

If we are honest, God is partially responsible when someone is raped or killed by logical extension. The Bible specifically states that likewise, God in His wisdom predetermined to allow Jesus to die for our sakes. He made Him who was utterly without sin to become a sin offering for us. In both cases, rape and Jesus's atonement, God is complicit in not intervening with some kind of miracle.

However, there is no miracle that ever interfered with free will. The Reed Sea was parted. The Jews did not have to cross the sea. The ax head floated. The prophet wanted to get the axe head. Other miracles healed people who were sick, fed people who were hungry, confirmed prophecies, answered prayers.

When God does not stop a rapist or murderer, we must trust that He has plans, and plans within plans within plans, and knows what is best. We can even see that better result if we look for it in most cases. God did NOT intervene to stop the most innocent man ever from being killed for crimes He never committed, but it was in our best interest. Having said all that, it was 100% wrong for Jesus to die for our sin. God allowed other people to do the wrong thing for His right reason. That was probably a better way to put it for Sunday's message.

Thank you."

Your fiction continues to be boring, your morals distasteful, and your delusions strong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-11-2013, 10:02 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
(13-11-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A friend responded to a comment I made in a sermon this Sunday where I said, "God did the wrong thing for the right reason in killing Christ." Here's my reponse to his comment:

"Hello my friend,

I was up thinking about your e-mail last night for about an hour. There are several responses I have for you to ponder:

1) You say God is the source of morals, which He is. Are you also implying that if God acts immorally we may not judge Him as immoral? Those are two different ideas. I've rarely been satisfied with the kind of Christians answer to a problem that ends with, "Well, what God here makes zero sense, so I'll leave it there with Him..."

2) Let's set the stage for what I mean by judging God's action, which is actually a comment on His inaction. Not that He did something wrong but that He chose not to act in a given instance with the death of Christ.

a) When God intervenes in a miraculous fashion in the Bible, He does so for three reasons I can discern 1) validate the speaker or preacher as "straight up from God" 2) helping people with real needs 3) providing type and shadow prophecies of Jesus

Two examples of this 1-2-3:

The Reed Sea was parted 1) to confirm Moses's authority as from God 2) helping the Jewish people flee the Egyptians and be delivered from them 3) serve as a type of baptism into Jesus per 1 Cor 10

When Elisha floated an ax head in 2 Kings 6 he 1) was reconfirmed as Elijah's heir and a true prophet 2) returned an ax head to its rightful owner/helped the prophet who lost it 3) created a picture of Christ since if the ax head floats up to meet the stick it may have formed a cruciform shape in the water, and the stick is from a tree like the tree where Christ died, and the ax head represents judgment and cutting the tree, etc.

When God, however, doesn't interact, say, someone is murdered or raped, we can affirm the following:

1) The participants have free will. If a rapist is stopped by God, we can say that the rapist has no free will but the victim does, which is not just--for only 50% of the people in this case to have true free will.

2) We can further say that there is a level playing ground since the Fall and that the rapist and victim alike are sinners.

3) We can also say that God is still using His free will, because He freely decides to let us use our free will, like a parent who chooses to let their children live and learn rather than forcing them to sit still. He's still imposing His free will in His sovereignty, but He's choosing to let us make moral decisions, like a Caesar who instead of going thumbs up or down on a gladiator asks the crowd what their will is instead.

4) We can be encouraged that Hell and Heaven eventually solve all "problems" regarding free will, grace, sin, suffering and judgment. The rapist's victim or murder victim has a chance at Heaven as does the criminal, who might instead be punished in Hell for their sin. People get lost in moral measurements and forget sometimes that even the rape or murder victim, dare I say it, is also a sinner who deserves to go to Hell as well.

Technically speaking, God the Father never condemned Jesus to die but instead chose freely NOT to interfere as sinful priests called for His death (the priests have to sacrifice the lamb) and the Romans then killed Him. But God did not respond with a miracle. If anyone in the history of the world needed a "break" it was Jesus. We both know Jesus loved us and died and rose for us, but what did Jesus do to DESERVE to die? Actually, nothing! He never sinned. He loved others, He always acted rightly, He always healed and helped and exhorted and shared and created.

If we are honest, God is partially responsible when someone is raped or killed by logical extension. The Bible specifically states that likewise, God in His wisdom predetermined to allow Jesus to die for our sakes. He made Him who was utterly without sin to become a sin offering for us. In both cases, rape and Jesus's atonement, God is complicit in not intervening with some kind of miracle.

However, there is no miracle that ever interfered with free will. The Reed Sea was parted. The Jews did not have to cross the sea. The ax head floated. The prophet wanted to get the axe head. Other miracles healed people who were sick, fed people who were hungry, confirmed prophecies, answered prayers.

When God does not stop a rapist or murderer, we must trust that He has plans, and plans within plans within plans, and knows what is best. We can even see that better result if we look for it in most cases. God did NOT intervene to stop the most innocent man ever from being killed for crimes He never committed, but it was in our best interest. Having said all that, it was 100% wrong for Jesus to die for our sin. God allowed other people to do the wrong thing for His right reason. That was probably a better way to put it for Sunday's message.

Thank you."

After struggling through this piece twice...I reached the following two conclusions.
1. You really should edit your work before you post it. Too many missing words makes your writing unclear.
2. There is no god. Therefore, your entire piece is vacuous.

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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13-11-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
.... it's like reading an argument between two kids about whether Harry Potter did an evil thing. In that I kinda wonder why I was reading it in the first place.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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13-11-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
I'd like Jesus better if instead of dying on the cross and becoming God's right hand man, he went up to heaven and punched God square in the dick.
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13-11-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
God is not the source of morality.
Any idiot knows that.

Praise Jebus he killed SO many people in the Philippines.
That was SO fucking wonderful and "moral".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-11-2013, 11:09 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
(13-11-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A friend responded to a comment I made in a sermon this Sunday where I said, "God did the wrong thing for the right reason in killing Christ." Here's my reponse to his comment:

"Hello my friend,

I was up thinking about your e-mail last night for about an hour. There are several responses I have for you to ponder:

1) You say God is the source of morals, which He is. Are you also implying that if God acts immorally we may not judge Him as immoral? Those are two different ideas. I've rarely been satisfied with the kind of Christians answer to a problem that ends with, "Well, what God here makes zero sense, so I'll leave it there with Him..."

2) Let's set the stage for what I mean by judging God's action, which is actually a comment on His inaction. Not that He did something wrong but that He chose not to act in a given instance with the death of Christ.

a) When God intervenes in a miraculous fashion in the Bible, He does so for three reasons I can discern 1) validate the speaker or preacher as "straight up from God" 2) helping people with real needs 3) providing type and shadow prophecies of Jesus

Two examples of this 1-2-3:

The Reed Sea was parted 1) to confirm Moses's authority as from God 2) helping the Jewish people flee the Egyptians and be delivered from them 3) serve as a type of baptism into Jesus per 1 Cor 10

When Elisha floated an ax head in 2 Kings 6 he 1) was reconfirmed as Elijah's heir and a true prophet 2) returned an ax head to its rightful owner/helped the prophet who lost it 3) created a picture of Christ since if the ax head floats up to meet the stick it may have formed a cruciform shape in the water, and the stick is from a tree like the tree where Christ died, and the ax head represents judgment and cutting the tree, etc.

When God, however, doesn't interact, say, someone is murdered or raped, we can affirm the following:

1) The participants have free will. If a rapist is stopped by God, we can say that the rapist has no free will but the victim does, which is not just--for only 50% of the people in this case to have true free will.

2) We can further say that there is a level playing ground since the Fall and that the rapist and victim alike are sinners.

3) We can also say that God is still using His free will, because He freely decides to let us use our free will, like a parent who chooses to let their children live and learn rather than forcing them to sit still. He's still imposing His free will in His sovereignty, but He's choosing to let us make moral decisions, like a Caesar who instead of going thumbs up or down on a gladiator asks the crowd what their will is instead.

4) We can be encouraged that Hell and Heaven eventually solve all "problems" regarding free will, grace, sin, suffering and judgment. The rapist's victim or murder victim has a chance at Heaven as does the criminal, who might instead be punished in Hell for their sin. People get lost in moral measurements and forget sometimes that even the rape or murder victim, dare I say it, is also a sinner who deserves to go to Hell as well.

Technically speaking, God the Father never condemned Jesus to die but instead chose freely NOT to interfere as sinful priests called for His death (the priests have to sacrifice the lamb) and the Romans then killed Him. But God did not respond with a miracle. If anyone in the history of the world needed a "break" it was Jesus. We both know Jesus loved us and died and rose for us, but what did Jesus do to DESERVE to die? Actually, nothing! He never sinned. He loved others, He always acted rightly, He always healed and helped and exhorted and shared and created.

If we are honest, God is partially responsible when someone is raped or killed by logical extension. The Bible specifically states that likewise, God in His wisdom predetermined to allow Jesus to die for our sakes. He made Him who was utterly without sin to become a sin offering for us. In both cases, rape and Jesus's atonement, God is complicit in not intervening with some kind of miracle.

However, there is no miracle that ever interfered with free will. The Reed Sea was parted. The Jews did not have to cross the sea. The ax head floated. The prophet wanted to get the axe head. Other miracles healed people who were sick, fed people who were hungry, confirmed prophecies, answered prayers.

When God does not stop a rapist or murderer, we must trust that He has plans, and plans within plans within plans, and knows what is best. We can even see that better result if we look for it in most cases. God did NOT intervene to stop the most innocent man ever from being killed for crimes He never committed, but it was in our best interest. Having said all that, it was 100% wrong for Jesus to die for our sin. God allowed other people to do the wrong thing for His right reason. That was probably a better way to put it for Sunday's message.

Thank you."

What part of "We aren't interested in your religiobabble is difficult for you to comprehend?"

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13-11-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
(13-11-2013 11:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  God is not the source of morality.
Any idiot knows that.

Praise Jebus he killed SO many people in the Philippines.
That was SO fucking wonderful and "moral".

Thought I was on your ignore list...?
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13-11-2013, 11:49 AM
RE: Free Will And Terrors And Goodness
(13-11-2013 10:02 AM)RaisdCath Wrote:  
(13-11-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A friend responded to a comment I made in a sermon this Sunday where I said, "God did the wrong thing for the right reason in killing Christ." Here's my reponse to his comment:

"Hello my friend,

I was up thinking about your e-mail last night for about an hour. There are several responses I have for you to ponder:

1) You say God is the source of morals, which He is. Are you also implying that if God acts immorally we may not judge Him as immoral? Those are two different ideas. I've rarely been satisfied with the kind of Christians answer to a problem that ends with, "Well, what God here makes zero sense, so I'll leave it there with Him..."

2) Let's set the stage for what I mean by judging God's action, which is actually a comment on His inaction. Not that He did something wrong but that He chose not to act in a given instance with the death of Christ.

a) When God intervenes in a miraculous fashion in the Bible, He does so for three reasons I can discern 1) validate the speaker or preacher as "straight up from God" 2) helping people with real needs 3) providing type and shadow prophecies of Jesus

Two examples of this 1-2-3:

The Reed Sea was parted 1) to confirm Moses's authority as from God 2) helping the Jewish people flee the Egyptians and be delivered from them 3) serve as a type of baptism into Jesus per 1 Cor 10

When Elisha floated an ax head in 2 Kings 6 he 1) was reconfirmed as Elijah's heir and a true prophet 2) returned an ax head to its rightful owner/helped the prophet who lost it 3) created a picture of Christ since if the ax head floats up to meet the stick it may have formed a cruciform shape in the water, and the stick is from a tree like the tree where Christ died, and the ax head represents judgment and cutting the tree, etc.

When God, however, doesn't interact, say, someone is murdered or raped, we can affirm the following:

1) The participants have free will. If a rapist is stopped by God, we can say that the rapist has no free will but the victim does, which is not just--for only 50% of the people in this case to have true free will.

2) We can further say that there is a level playing ground since the Fall and that the rapist and victim alike are sinners.

3) We can also say that God is still using His free will, because He freely decides to let us use our free will, like a parent who chooses to let their children live and learn rather than forcing them to sit still. He's still imposing His free will in His sovereignty, but He's choosing to let us make moral decisions, like a Caesar who instead of going thumbs up or down on a gladiator asks the crowd what their will is instead.

4) We can be encouraged that Hell and Heaven eventually solve all "problems" regarding free will, grace, sin, suffering and judgment. The rapist's victim or murder victim has a chance at Heaven as does the criminal, who might instead be punished in Hell for their sin. People get lost in moral measurements and forget sometimes that even the rape or murder victim, dare I say it, is also a sinner who deserves to go to Hell as well.

Technically speaking, God the Father never condemned Jesus to die but instead chose freely NOT to interfere as sinful priests called for His death (the priests have to sacrifice the lamb) and the Romans then killed Him. But God did not respond with a miracle. If anyone in the history of the world needed a "break" it was Jesus. We both know Jesus loved us and died and rose for us, but what did Jesus do to DESERVE to die? Actually, nothing! He never sinned. He loved others, He always acted rightly, He always healed and helped and exhorted and shared and created.

If we are honest, God is partially responsible when someone is raped or killed by logical extension. The Bible specifically states that likewise, God in His wisdom predetermined to allow Jesus to die for our sakes. He made Him who was utterly without sin to become a sin offering for us. In both cases, rape and Jesus's atonement, God is complicit in not intervening with some kind of miracle.

However, there is no miracle that ever interfered with free will. The Reed Sea was parted. The Jews did not have to cross the sea. The ax head floated. The prophet wanted to get the axe head. Other miracles healed people who were sick, fed people who were hungry, confirmed prophecies, answered prayers.

When God does not stop a rapist or murderer, we must trust that He has plans, and plans within plans within plans, and knows what is best. We can even see that better result if we look for it in most cases. God did NOT intervene to stop the most innocent man ever from being killed for crimes He never committed, but it was in our best interest. Having said all that, it was 100% wrong for Jesus to die for our sin. God allowed other people to do the wrong thing for His right reason. That was probably a better way to put it for Sunday's message.

Thank you."

After struggling through this piece twice...I reached the following two conclusions.
1. You really should edit your work before you post it. Too many missing words makes your writing unclear.
2. There is no god. Therefore, your entire piece is vacuous.

You ought to struggle through it again, then.
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