Free Will Argument
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28-02-2014, 06:12 AM
RE: Free Will Argument
(27-02-2014 05:27 PM)Zephiel16 Wrote:  I'd have to disagree. There is such a thing as future and past to an omniscient being. It exists within time and space, and it is aware of the passing of time, now it may not give meaning to the passing of time as it is eternal, but it is aware of the existence of time.
I'm aware of the existence of a lake nearby. That doesn't mean that I exist within the lake. That god is aware of our experience with time does not mean that he experiences it in the same way.

Quote:Impulse gave a similar argument, and I responded with this:
The time traveler has already seen you make your choice, he has confirmed that X would happen, so yes you still have free will. However, that is not the same as an omniscient being believing infallibly that X will occur. It's different because this being did not have travel to the future to confirm this belief for it is infallible. This is a being is in the past, before your existence or the existence of anything for that matter, believing infallibly that X will occur.
The time traveler can also go to a point before my existence, yet you say that doesn't preclude my free will.

The point really is whether foreknowledge implies compulsion. You seem to agree that the time traveler's foreknowledge does not compel me to do X. You then say the omniscient being is different because it believes infallibly that I will do X. If infallible belief is merely foreknowledge, then your positions on god and the time traveler are in contradiction. If infallible belief is something other than foreknowledge, then you've left the omniscience argument.
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01-03-2014, 03:58 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2014 04:11 AM by 1nick12.)
Free Will Argument
Let's say you watch the Super Bowl then after the game you go home and watch a video of the recorded game again. You know the exact outcome of the game and the exact plays that are gonna be made, but the knowledge you have of the game in no way affects the outcome of the game. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean that the actions we make we're predetermined by Him. To me that makes sense, what doesn't make sense is if He is omniscience then he knows that after a couple of min after I'm born I will die, or I will live my whole life starving somewhere in Africa, or I will be born into a family where I'm constantly abused, so why give me life. This probably leads into a whole different topic but this is my understanding and at the same time confusion of the omniscience of God.

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01-03-2014, 04:15 AM
RE: Free Will Argument
(01-03-2014 03:58 AM)1nick12 Wrote:  Let's say you watch the Super Bowl then after the game you go home and watch a video of the recorded game again. You know the exact outcome of the game and the exact plays that are gonna be made, but the knowledge you have of the game in no way affects the outcome of the game. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean that the actions we make we're predetermined by Him. To me that makes sense, what doesn't make sense is if He is omniscience then he knows that after a couple of min after I'm born I will die, or I will live my whole life starving somewhere in Africa, or I will be born into a family where I'm constantly abused, so why give me life. This probably leads into a whole different topic but this is my understanding and at the same time confusion of the omniscience of God.

The question is if god could design any world he wanted but he chose to create this world with abuses, hunger and suffering. Makes you wonder why.
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01-03-2014, 12:55 PM
Free Will Argument
(01-03-2014 04:15 AM)donotwant Wrote:  [quote='1nick12' pid='506481' dateline='1393667894']

The question is if god could design any world he wanted but he chose to create this world with abuses, hunger and suffering. Makes you wonder why.

Yes basically that would be the question

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03-03-2014, 06:24 AM
RE: Free Will Argument
(26-02-2014 11:51 AM)Zephiel16 Wrote:  So we were covering the "problem of evil" in my philosophy class, and the professor was discussing one of the theists' explanations for why evil exist if God does, which is that God lets evil occur because he doesn't want to affect our free will.

Now since free will is the reason, the professor jumped to talking about whether or not we truly have free will. His argument was something along these lines:

1. If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including the future.
2. If he knows everything then he cannot be wrong about anything, including the future.
3. Therefore if God can't be wrong about the future, the future is predetermined.
Conclusion: If God is omniscient, then the future is predetermined, thus we have no free will

My Professor's whole argument (which I agree with) is that if God knew everything that was going to happen even before we were created, and he can never be wrong, then things could not have gone differently from the way he knew it was gonna happen, nothing could be different, therefore the future is predetermined. Thus we really have no free will, because we cannot do anything other than what God has predicted.

Now the theists in the class came up with some pretty ridiculous counters to this logic. The dumbest being that the Universe and our fates are like a book, and God just knows what happens in the book, which has two problem: 1. The characters in books have no free will, they do what the author wants them to do, and 2. Who wrote this book if not God. They were also claiming that #3 is false, which is a difficult claim to make if you accept #1 and #2 as true.

So I'd like to know what you guys think, mostly I'd like to know if any theists have a proper counter to this argument.

The flaw in the professor's argument is that it lacks a mechanism. It assumes that being able to see is a "mover" in itself. If foresight "makes" things happen then he is right, but that is a big assumption.
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03-03-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Free Will Argument
(27-02-2014 06:28 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(27-02-2014 05:06 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I think the difficulty in explaining or comprehending it is we're talking about a very strange and probably impossible concept of seeing into the future.
That's why the logic of it is hard to grasp. In my mind the argument fails right there because it is an impossible concept of seeing into the future. There are just too many questions about it that go unanswered for your argument to be effective to me.

But then again: gawd... Rolleyes
In reality, my argument doesn't make sense to me either, so there's that. Smile It was merely what I would have said back in my theist days and I think it's how many theists see it too. But, these days, it's all a bunch of bunk to me anyway. I agree with those who say there is no such thing as true free will.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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15-11-2014, 06:45 AM
RE: Free Will Argument
(26-02-2014 11:51 AM)Zephiel16 Wrote:  So we were covering the "problem of evil" in my philosophy class, and the professor was discussing one of the theists' explanations for why evil exist if God does, which is that God lets evil occur because he doesn't want to affect our free will.

Now since free will is the reason, the professor jumped to talking about whether or not we truly have free will. His argument was something along these lines:

1. If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including the future.
2. If he knows everything then he cannot be wrong about anything, including the future.
3. Therefore if God can't be wrong about the future, the future is predetermined.
Conclusion: If God is omniscient, then the future is predetermined, thus we have no free will

My Professor's whole argument (which I agree with) is that if God knew everything that was going to happen even before we were created, and he can never be wrong, then things could not have gone differently from the way he knew it was gonna happen, nothing could be different, therefore the future is predetermined. Thus we really have no free will, because we cannot do anything other than what God has predicted.

Now the theists in the class came up with some pretty ridiculous counters to this logic. The dumbest being that the Universe and our fates are like a book, and God just knows what happens in the book, which has two problem: 1. The characters in books have no free will, they do what the author wants them to do, and 2. Who wrote this book if not God. They were also claiming that #3 is false, which is a difficult claim to make if you accept #1 and #2 as true.

So I'd like to know what you guys think, mostly I'd like to know if any theists have a proper counter to this argument.

As it turns out, free will is impossible even for atheists, but for theists to defend it is even more messed up. Of course they can't help it since they don't have free will. They repeat what they have been taught by their religious leaders and christian apologists.

I became heavily interested in this topic because "free will" is the standard answer to the problem of evil.

My current project is explaining why many things in this world are irrelevant to me.
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