Free Will or Determinisn
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01-12-2012, 08:31 PM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(01-12-2012 08:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-12-2012 07:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  There is a claim that Buddhism is atheistic.
They certainly look into supernatural phenomena, in my view.
Buddha never claimed to be a God and advocated personal testing.
Heavy atheist Sam Harris has shown some interest in it. Weeping
There are different sects or schools of Buddhism, some are atheistic, some not.
The majority of them are atheistic, one sect worshiping Buddha as some god.

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01-12-2012, 08:33 PM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(01-12-2012 07:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(01-12-2012 12:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  A friend was discussing that they now believe in determinism because they read a book by a lawyer (they didn't recall the name or the name of the author but it changed their life). They claim Buddha and others also believe that. I always considered Buddhism to be rather agnostic about gods. But ok...I don't know much about it. But from what little I've read about determinism (mostly on wikipedia) it seems to me that it just spanks of a new type of god or religion....or something along those lines.

Also, if there is another thread here somewhere please point me in that direction.

Finally, I haven't a clue if is even posted in the right place. As far as I can tell it's a philosophy and not a scientific theory or hypnosis. I do understand it does bleed over into quantum mechanics/theory but I'm having a hard time seeing why.

Thanks in advance,
Kelly
They certainly look into supernatural phenomena, in my view.
That does not disqualify their deistic description.

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02-12-2012, 12:11 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(01-12-2012 07:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(01-12-2012 12:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  A friend was discussing that they now believe in determinism because they read a book by a lawyer (they didn't recall the name or the name of the author but it changed their life). They claim Buddha and others also believe that. I always considered Buddhism to be rather agnostic about gods. But ok...I don't know much about it. But from what little I've read about determinism (mostly on wikipedia) it seems to me that it just spanks of a new type of god or religion....or something along those lines.

Also, if there is another thread here somewhere please point me in that direction.

Finally, I haven't a clue if is even posted in the right place. As far as I can tell it's a philosophy and not a scientific theory or hypnosis. I do understand it does bleed over into quantum mechanics/theory but I'm having a hard time seeing why.

Thanks in advance,
Kelly
There is a claim that Buddhism is atheistic.
They certainly look into supernatural phenomena, in my view.
Buddha never claimed to be a God and advocated personal testing.
Heavy atheist Sam Harris has shown some interest in it. Weeping

I do like the meditative aspects of Buddhism. It's not something I'm terribly knowledgeable of. Although the Buddhist teaching of "Events happen; deeds are done; but there is no doer thereof." I always took rather literal that there isn't a god that causes things to happen. My friend informed me that I've misinterpreted the statement.
Kelly
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02-12-2012, 12:25 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(01-12-2012 03:55 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-12-2012 03:19 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  There's nothing wrong with your thread. There are literally 1,000s of threads and the search tool is almost useless. AND, a lot of people, yourself included, have joined well after some of those other discussions. There isn't any reason to stop talking about something just because Bucky talked about it somewhere else. He is Emperor of the Universe in name only, so feel free to start whatever discussions you like. Thumbsup
Agree. (I am emperor of the universe). Seriously, though, I was just pointing to other discussions. It's a very interesting subject, especially the neuro-psych aspects, (to me anyhoo). There are always guests stopping by who haven't seen our ideas about it, anyway. So have at it. I say there is no such thing. One actions are totally determined by what is present in the molecular structure of one's brain. You can't choose something your memory is not aware of. In making the choice, you maximize your satisfaction. Sometimes people regret the choice of short term, over long term satisfaction. The molecular workings are the brain are "determined" by genetics, and past experiences.

I do apologize for being pissy earlier. I do kinda understand aspects of determinism e.g., cause and effect; nurture verses nature. It's just the idea that everything since the beginning of the universe is determined to happen. And how quantum physics/mechanics/theory and chaos theory fit into it.

I've never been able to grasp the free will part at all, because we're all constrained by lots of things and I should have left it out the title, but that's what started the discussion with my friend. She said free will was false and determinism was the truth. But [again to me] determinism seems almost like fate or something. Whatever happens will happen because when the universe was created it set up that it was all determined.

Thanks,
Kelly
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02-12-2012, 12:36 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(01-12-2012 08:19 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-12-2012 02:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  Hey we all have off days, be nice Smile I think Bucky was just trying to be helpful.

By determinism you mean the idea that our free will is an illusion and really we are just obeying the laws of nature - simply very complex machines ? I subscribe to that idea.

I'm with the stupid canine here, except that's not determinism he's describing, that's mechanism. I think there are far too many natural stochastic processes for hard determinism to be tenable. Hell even at the quantum level things are described probabilistically.

Free will is trickier, but there is increasing evidence that what we traditionally think of as free will, i.e. our perception that we make conscious decisions, is illusory. "As of 2008, the upcoming outcome of a decision could be found in study of the brain activity in the prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 7 seconds before the subject was aware of their decision."

And I really don't see any problem with starting a new thread which reexamines covered territory, Kelly. I think it's often preferable to dredging up an old thread. Fresh look, fresh eyes, and all that.

Thank you for the links. Gotta a lot of reading to do. When my friend brought up determinism I hadnt a clue and did a quick search actually while on the phone with her. Thank you for your thoughts and helping me find a direction.

Kelly
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02-12-2012, 12:45 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(02-12-2012 12:25 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(01-12-2012 03:55 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Agree. (I am emperor of the universe). Seriously, though, I was just pointing to other discussions. It's a very interesting subject, especially the neuro-psych aspects, (to me anyhoo). There are always guests stopping by who haven't seen our ideas about it, anyway. So have at it. I say there is no such thing. One actions are totally determined by what is present in the molecular structure of one's brain. You can't choose something your memory is not aware of. In making the choice, you maximize your satisfaction. Sometimes people regret the choice of short term, over long term satisfaction. The molecular workings are the brain are "determined" by genetics, and past experiences.

I do apologize for being pissy earlier. I do kinda understand aspects of determinism e.g., cause and effect; nurture verses nature. It's just the idea that everything since the beginning of the universe is determined to happen. And how quantum physics/mechanics/theory and chaos theory fit into it.

I've never been able to grasp the free will part at all, because we're all constrained by lots of things and I should have left it out the title, but that's what started the discussion with my friend. She said free will was false and determinism was the truth. But [again to me] determinism seems almost like fate or something. Whatever happens will happen because when the universe was created it set up that it was all determined.

Thanks,
Kelly

No problem with people getting pissy. Some of us do that just to get a rise (no names).

With a powerful enough computer (which does not exist), all future events should be predictable, if we could gather all (meaning ALL) input data.
This, however, is not the same as predetermined which implies a goal or objective.

The computer will be able to predict the likelihood of any event happening but I don't think it will have absolute certainty.
How predictable is it that I will hesitate for a nano-second before I take the next drag on my cigarette?

This echoes the extent of our wisdom (not my wisdom, clever people's wisdom) in the quantum world where particles may have multiple possible futures (and more strangely, histories) and we can only talk about probabilities.

I will stop now before I confuse myself.

Huh

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02-12-2012, 01:43 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(02-12-2012 12:45 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(02-12-2012 12:25 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I do apologize for being pissy earlier. I do kinda understand aspects of determinism e.g., cause and effect; nurture verses nature. It's just the idea that everything since the beginning of the universe is determined to happen. And how quantum physics/mechanics/theory and chaos theory fit into it.

I've never been able to grasp the free will part at all, because we're all constrained by lots of things and I should have left it out the title, but that's what started the discussion with my friend. She said free will was false and determinism was the truth. But [again to me] determinism seems almost like fate or something. Whatever happens will happen because when the universe was created it set up that it was all determined.

Thanks,
Kelly

No problem with people getting pissy. Some of us do that just to get a rise (no names).

With a powerful enough computer (which does not exist), all future events should be predictable, if we could gather all (meaning ALL) input data.
This, however, is not the same as predetermined which implies a goal or objective.

The computer will be able to predict the likelihood of any event happening but I don't think it will have absolute certainty.
How predictable is it that I will hesitate for a nano-second before I take the next drag on my cigarette?

This echoes the extent of our wisdom (not my wisdom, clever people's wisdom) in the quantum world where particles may have multiple possible futures (and more strangely, histories) and we can only talk about probabilities.

I will stop now before I confuse myself.

Huh

Thanks! I kinda understand in determinism that given a set of conditions there's only one possible answer. But that to me seems kinda flaky. I agree with the computer analogy...but ya the whole thing is very confusing. But it would be very cool if one day we could predict say earthquakes and pinpoint which homes would sustain damage. But it also does lead to some more worrisome ideas. If such a computer could predict say a baby would grow up to be a murderer or something....

Dunno...

Ok I just freaked myself out :-)
Thanks,
Kelly
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02-12-2012, 02:25 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
An atoms movement is 100% consistent to an unchanging pattern. Our brain is made of atoms as is everything else, so their is no free will by default.

It's not really complicated. Don't sweat it.
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02-12-2012, 03:21 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(02-12-2012 02:25 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  An atoms movement is 100% consistent to an unchanging pattern. Our brain is made of atoms as is everything else, so their is no free will by default.

It's not really complicated. Don't sweat it.
Incorrect afaik. Quantum Mech cannot predict state of an atom in the future from it's current state, even a single hydrogen atom. There's speculation that it's kinda written into the laws of the universe that it's not possible. Best we can do is probabilistic calculation.

But free will still an illusion, because if our brains are subject to laws of the universe then whenever we change our mind or decide to do something, it's eventually down to the universe interacting with itself in complex ways. That's why I had no choice really about typing this post Tongue
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02-12-2012, 04:31 AM
RE: Free Will or Determinisn
(02-12-2012 03:21 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(02-12-2012 02:25 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  An atoms movement is 100% consistent to an unchanging pattern. Our brain is made of atoms as is everything else, so their is no free will by default.

It's not really complicated. Don't sweat it.
Incorrect afaik. Quantum Mech cannot predict state of an atom in the future from it's current state, even a single hydrogen atom. There's speculation that it's kinda written into the laws of the universe that it's not possible. Best we can do is probabilistic calculation.

But free will still an illusion, because if our brains are subject to laws of the universe then whenever we change our mind or decide to do something, it's eventually down to the universe interacting with itself in complex ways. That's why I had no choice really about typing this post Tongue
Y'r Honour, m'Lud, the Universe told me to rape her... I had no choice.

Seems like a reasonable defense.

Dodgy

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