Free Will vol. 25
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04-03-2014, 12:09 PM
Free Will vol. 25
I know there's been a few free will topics in the past but I was hit with another ridiculous statement by a theist earlier.

The classic 'oh... God gave us free will cos he didn't want to create robots who just do what they are told'. I hate that defense.


Isn't being a Christian exactly like that though? Being a robot and doing exactly what your told or your going to hell?

So the choice that god has given us then is basically do we want to be robots or not.

I'll go with the latter
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04-03-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: Free Will vol. 25
I love how these theists believe in divine intervention and free will. That bible stopping a bullet story had my theist SIL claiming it was a miracle ... not that the bible stopped the bullet, but the fact that he just started carrying the bible in his pocket the week before. So, their gawd made him carry that bible so that it would stop a bullet a week later. So much for free will. And don't bother stopping the mugging, just let the bastards shoot the guy and have that bible stop the bullet. So sad.

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04-03-2014, 01:12 PM
RE: Free Will vol. 25
(04-03-2014 12:25 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I love how these theists believe in divine intervention and free will. That bible stopping a bullet story had my theist SIL claiming it was a miracle ... not that the bible stopped the bullet, but the fact that he just started carrying the bible in his pocket the week before. So, their gawd made him carry that bible so that it would stop a bullet a week later. So much for free will. And don't bother stopping the mugging, just let the bastards shoot the guy and have that bible stop the bullet. So sad.

Reminds me of Mark Twain talking about a guy who was shot in the leg and the guy thanking God for him being alive, and Twain saying "If God was helping him, why didn't he just deflect the bullet to begin with?"

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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04-03-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: Free Will vol. 25
(04-03-2014 01:12 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 12:25 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I love how these theists believe in divine intervention and free will. That bible stopping a bullet story had my theist SIL claiming it was a miracle ... not that the bible stopped the bullet, but the fact that he just started carrying the bible in his pocket the week before. So, their gawd made him carry that bible so that it would stop a bullet a week later. So much for free will. And don't bother stopping the mugging, just let the bastards shoot the guy and have that bible stop the bullet. So sad.

Reminds me of Mark Twain talking about a guy who was shot in the leg and the guy thanking God for him being alive, and Twain saying "If God was helping him, why didn't he just deflect the bullet to begin with?"

Boy, you sure do like Mark Twain! I went on a school trip to his home in Connecticut when I was like eight.

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04-03-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Free Will vol. 25
While I wouldn't say that Christians are "robotic", I still find the free will defense dumb. Even the Bible tells us about God violating people's free will. He explicitly "hardens Pharaoh's heart" so that he may punish him numerous times in Exodus. It flat out says this no less than four times (despite there being ten plagues). God literally made Pharaoh change his mind so that he could kill all the first born Egyptians, many of whom were children and could not have been responsible for enslaving the Israelites.

Exodus 10:1-2
Quote:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord.”

So, while Christians may fap to free will, the Pentateuch certainly does not.
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04-03-2014, 01:57 PM
RE: Free Will vol. 25
God gave you free will...but he has a perfect plan for your life...but you can beg him to change that plan...I'm so confused.
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04-03-2014, 04:06 PM
RE: Free Will vol. 25
(04-03-2014 01:46 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  While I wouldn't say that Christians are "robotic", I still find the free will defense dumb. Even the Bible tells us about God violating people's free will. He explicitly "hardens Pharaoh's heart" so that he may punish him numerous times in Exodus. It flat out says this no less than four times (despite there being ten plagues). God literally made Pharaoh change his mind so that he could kill all the first born Egyptians, many of whom were children and could not have been responsible for enslaving the Israelites.

Exodus 10:1-2
Quote:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord.”

So, while Christians may fap to free will, the Pentateuch certainly does not.

But then again, new testament doctrine says we are born in sin and have no choice but to sin. I CAN NOT live a perfect, sinless life; I am a sinner by nature - therefore no free will. Yet we are still held accountable for that which we cannot help but do. If I truly had free will, the I COULD choose to never "sin". So which one is it? Am I born a sinner by nature with no option but to sin? Or do I have true free will? This is one of the paradoxes that led me out of belief.
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04-03-2014, 04:30 PM
RE: Free Will vol. 25
(04-03-2014 01:45 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Boy, you sure do like Mark Twain! I went on a school trip to his home in Connecticut when I was like eight.

I'll have to check it out if I ever go through Conneticut. I don't know if I would call him my favorite atheist, but he's one of my favorites. I like the fact that he had the balls to stand up and criticize the ridiculousness of religion in a time when 99.9% of the country was religious, and criticizing the church was about the worst thing you could do.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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