Free Will
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04-03-2010, 07:45 PM
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 07:30 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  I am afraid you need to show proof you made these claims not me "If free will exists, As I don't believe in free will anyway, I find it difficult to care whether or not an imaginary being wants to go back in time and destroy it.What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus. We know that the human brain has deterministic, physical components that follow the law of causality" Those are your claims not mine, so I am asking you to prove what you claim, it's not that hard if you have done your research. We don't know that the human brain is deterministic etc. You made the claim, not me, so prove it!

Your knowledge of the burden of proof is sorely lacking. It isn't on the person who made a claim. It is on the person making the positive claim.
"There is no reason to believe that free will exists, as there is no evidence that the deterministic capabilities of the brain cannot answer fully for what we feel" is a negative claim. "Free will exists and the deterministic parts of the brain cannot answer for what we feel" is a positive claim, as it makes a statement about the existence of an as-yet-unproven item.
The burden of proof is on you to prove that free will exists.
However, you are right to ask for the evidence that the brain is deterministic. In essence, the evidence is this: The brain operates through electrochemical reactions, altered by the input from the nervous system. Chemical reactions are deterministic. As of yet, there is no evidence that a non-deterministic part of the brain exists.

Quote:People of this site, do you see what "Unbeliever" does? He always comments on others claims and asks them for proof. I lead him into making a stand, he made the stand, I said "show proof" like he does for everyone else and he says "The burden of proof is on you again, I'm afraid."

Because it is. You still don't understand the burden of proof. You are the one making a positive claim.

Quote:This is his pattern, he does not want to make a stand because if does, he has the chance be proven wrong.

I don't make a "stand" - a positive assertion - because none of the topics you have brought up require me to. Why should I make an assertion that I don't support?

Quote:In my opinion is that is what happens with most agnostic debates, or opinions, or arguments whatever you want to call them. Always put it off on someone who disagrees and make them show proof.

Unfortunately, you aren't exactly debating an atheist. You're making the assumption that I am primarily an atheist. I'm a skeptic first. Everything else comes second. And, as a skeptic, I only believe that which has evidence to support it. Because of this, I tend to make very few, if any, positive claims; the claims I make are mostly negative for the simple fact that they are based on evidence and evidence alone.

Quote:"UNBELIEVER" show proof of what you said, stop playing stupid games.

What, that the brain is deterministic? The evidence for that is that the brain operates through chemical reactions, which are deterministic, and if you dispute that I advise you to go read some basic biology and chemistry textbooks.
I have supported my position. The brain is deterministic. If you want to assert that there is a non-deterministic part as well, present your evidence.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
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04-03-2010, 08:05 PM
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 07:30 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 06:16 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 05:43 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 02:25 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  You don't believe in free will, so ways are determined by who or what?

What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus.

If you mean by "electrochemical reactions in the brain.." The way that Serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, melatonin, insulin, and prostaglandins among others affects our decision making, moods etc. then I agree.

Yep, that's what I mean.

Quote:If you are saying that I have no free will because of the way those chemicals interact then show proof.

The burden of proof is on you again, I'm afraid.
We know that the human brain has deterministic, physical components that follow the law of causality. If you assert that there is a component which is not deterministic and acausal, you must show proof.

I am afraid you need to show proof you made these claims not me "If free will exists, As I don't believe in free will anyway, I find it difficult to care whether or not an imaginary being wants to go back in time and destroy it.What "ways"? If you mean to ask what it is that causes our consciousness, it's the electrochemical reactions in the brain. The human brain is a stimulus-response machine that works with incredibly fine levels of stimulus. We know that the human brain has deterministic, physical components that follow the law of causality" Those are your claims not mine, so I am asking you to prove what you claim, it's not that hard if you have done your research. We don't know that the human brain is deterministic etc. You made the claim, not me, so prove it!

People of this site, do you see what "Unbeliever" does? He always comments on others claims and asks them for proof. I lead him into making a stand, he made the stand, I said "show proof" like he does for everyone else and he says "The burden of proof is on you again, I'm afraid." This is his pattern, he does not want to make a stand because if does, he has the chance be proven wrong. In my opinion is that is what happens with most agnostic debates, or opinions, or arguments whatever you want to call them. Always put it off on someone who disagrees and make them show proof. "UNBELIEVER" show proof of what you said, stop playing stupid games.

That is somewhat disturbing. You are getting very frustrated at Unbeliever. You're clearly more interested in debating him, and I don't feel that I need to debate on his behalf.

As for evidence, I think you're going to get frustrated at me here as well, because on a few key points, the burden of proof is not me. But still, to provide evidence:

That the brain has chemicals and electoral impulses that control it.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/brain1.htm

That the brain is always changing and updating, or as I put it, adding programming.
http://easteadjr.org/Brain.pdf

The law of causality and that it effects the physical things, including the chemicals, cells, electoral, and environment that adds the programming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality

If you want to say that our minds are outside of the law of causality, then I'm afraid you need the evidence for that. We have no reason to suspect that the chemicals and cells of our brains can't function fine without something outside of it, or a soul. So if you want to say that we haves souls, you need evidence there. Again, I'm making the negative claim, the default position, and as such don't need evidence.

So, presuming we don't have souls, then we are strictly physical being, and totally within the law of causality.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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04-03-2010, 08:10 PM
RE: Free Will
Thanks for the links, ashley!

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
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04-03-2010, 09:09 PM
 
RE: Free Will
I came here to discuss issues, but my ego gets in the way with someone who claims things like "Unbeliever". You seem to be reasonable and not caught up in the juvenile responses of "unbeliever" So maybe I should discuss issues with you. And I want to say DISCUSS not argue.
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04-03-2010, 09:17 PM
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 09:09 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  I came here to discuss issues, but my ego gets in the way with someone who claims things like "Unbeliever".

Didn't you just accuse me of not making claims?

Quote:You seem to be reasonable and not caught up in the juvenile responses of "unbeliever"

Juvenile? Moi? How dare you, sah! I challenge you to pistols at dawn!

Seriously, martin. I've been entirely serious in my responses to you, and you have yet to point out a single instance of a flaw in my arguments. For you to accuse me of being juvenile is the height of irony.

In any case, I encourage you to go ahead and discuss things with ashley. She's more than capable of refuting your horribly flawed arguments.
By the way, I presented my evidence. Where's yours?

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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05-03-2010, 04:39 PM
RE: Free Will
(04-03-2010 09:09 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  I came here to discuss issues, but my ego gets in the way with someone who claims things like "Unbeliever". You seem to be reasonable and not caught up in the juvenile responses of "unbeliever" So maybe I should discuss issues with you. And I want to say DISCUSS not argue.

I would love to debate with you Martin, and I hope it doesn't turn into an argument.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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05-03-2010, 07:17 PM
 
RE: Free Will
But arguments are so cool Sad Tood bad that a device to stab people in the face over the internet hasn't been invented yet Tongue
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05-03-2010, 08:15 PM
 
RE: Free Will
(05-03-2010 04:39 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  
(04-03-2010 09:09 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  I came here to discuss issues, but my ego gets in the way with someone who claims things like "Unbeliever". You seem to be reasonable and not caught up in the juvenile responses of "unbeliever" So maybe I should discuss issues with you. And I want to say DISCUSS not argue.

I would love to debate with you Martin, and I hope it doesn't turn into an argument.

Trust me it will not turn into an argument. I am interested in the process of how one comes to their beliefs. Also I am interested in more of the concepts of ideas, for example, I can't write in this format nor do I have time to write everything I know or think, or what others know or think about evolution. But I am interested in why someone believes in evolution with all the holes, presuppositions etc. that it takes to believe in it. Take "unbelievers" no free will, brain chemistry post. How does a person act with that world view. There was a study done at the University of Minnesota and UC Santa Barbara that showed that people who had the no free will, nerve cell associated molecule view, cheated more often than those that didn't have that view. And I sure if we followed them around there whole life was less moral. Yet atheists claim they are just as moral as theists. In 2006 the typical no-faith American donated just 200.00. The typical active faith was 1500.00. Take out church based giving and the active faith person donated twice as much.

ABC News reported the following:
“ ...the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation.

Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:

"Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities.

Don't want to argue, just want to toss ideas around. I don't care about debating the test or finding someone who disagrees with it etc. If I am a pack neurons and chemicals and I am here for a short time why not cheat, lie steal rape, why give to charity? etc. Read my post to unbeliever about the sky not being blue, which he never responded to BTW, I am not interested in arguing, because like I said, I can find a study or a person that disbelieves everything.
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05-03-2010, 10:42 PM
RE: Free Will
(05-03-2010 08:15 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Take "unbelievers" no free will, brain chemistry post. How does a person act with that world view. There was a study done at the University of Minnesota and UC Santa Barbara that showed that people who had the no free will, nerve cell associated molecule view, cheated more often than those that didn't have that view.

Link or I call shenanigans.

Quote:In 2006 the typical no-faith American donated just 200.00. The typical active faith was 1500.00. Take out church based giving and the active faith person donated twice as much.

Same as above.

Quote:If I am a pack neurons and chemicals and I am here for a short time why not cheat, lie steal rape, why give to charity? etc.

You may be interested in this thread on the JREF, where a discussion about this very topic is currently going on.

Quote:Read my post to unbeliever about the sky not being blue, which he never responded to BTW

Because it was nonsense.

To refresh everyone's memories, here is the post that martinb59 is referring to:

martinb59 Wrote:Does this sound like Unbeliever? Me-The sky is blue! Him-no it's not.(argument from dismissal) Me-yes it is. Him-No its not.(argument Ad Nauseam) Me-People everywhere believe the sky is blue. Him-The sky is not always blue, I look up now and it is gray (exception that proves the rule) Me-Yes it because of Rayleigh scattering,in the atmosphere the color blue is scattered much more efficiently than the other colors. Him-Fallacy Of The Crucial Experiment.

None of which is actually what I have done. If you want a response, try making some relevant points.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
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05-03-2010, 10:48 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2010 10:52 PM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: Free Will
(05-03-2010 08:15 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Don't want to argue, just want to toss ideas around. I don't care about debating the test or finding someone who disagrees with it etc. If I am a pack neurons and chemicals and I am here for a short time why not cheat, lie steal rape, why give to charity? etc. Read my post to unbeliever about the sky not being blue, which he never responded to BTW, I am not interested in arguing, because like I said, I can find a study or a person that disbelieves everything.

Alright, if you want to understand other view points, that is a very noble cause, I commend you then.

So to answer the question of, "If I am a pack neurons and chemicals and I am here for a short time why not cheat, lie steal rape, why give to charity?". I got to a point a few years ago where I wondered that myself. It was sort of a gray spot in my life. I believe that we were placed on this earth with no divine propose, to goal, and point. Every action I made was destined happen, and I had no choice about it.

You're a theist, and I'm sure you have heard the "I make my own purpose bit" before. Well, try to trade places and suspend your beliefs for a moment. I can choose between that mindset of deary worthlessness, or I can decide that I can make my own path and goals in life. After all, if there is no god, are we as humans, to the best of our knowledge, the highest beings?

As to why I don't do bad things. I think neither of us can deny that we don't have some sense of moral codes, largely from within. We differ on where we believe they came from, but not that they are there. I basically do these things selfishly. I do what will get me happiness. Raping and stealing would make me feel guilty, put me at risk of going to jail, and just be over all a violation of my morals. I would get no joy from doing wrong like, but instead gain a deep feeling of pain, suffering, and regret.

Why I do good. Same principles. Humans are social creatures. Again, we differ on why, but not the fact itself. I believe in evolution, and that we got out instincts from basic societies. For one of these small little packs of humans to work right, bonds must be formed. This is typically done with some sign of good will to the other humans around you. This has carried over to today. We have a need to give to charity, and when we do, we feel good about it.

I think I have given a somewhat wrong impression above. I do good and bad in accordance to my emotions, but it's also on a deeper level. I may see this world as cold, pointless, void of divine meaning, and temporary, but I still see the human life as something important. I want to help the world the world, and I do have a strong set of morals. So there are two levels of motivation.

I will end on this note, because it's getting late and my posting is getting long. We as humans, all of the same basic emotions. The need to be part of something bigger, to be loved for and cared about. We long to feel important, and a functioning part of society. Most humans has these wants. We can disagree on how they came to be, but they are there. We can see the world in all different ways, and see how part in the world in just as many different ways, but are basic wants are the same.

And about the faith-charity thing, I'd prefer not to get into it. You need to how us where you are getting this, but I would also have to show where I get me data, and I hate dealing with stats. You can find a stat to imply anything.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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