Free will
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16-10-2011, 01:26 AM
RE: Free will
(15-10-2011 07:54 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Sometimes I feel like a puppet on a string, ...

I'm pretty sure that I am the puppet master. But I'm also pretty sure that I am not what I think I am at all.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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16-10-2011, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2011 02:55 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Free will
(15-10-2011 07:54 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I don't think I fully understand the question that our ineffable Mr. Woof has asked. More I'm sure because I'm tired than anything else. But On the subject of free will, the greatest gift, I have some thoughts.

Firstly, If god has a plan for us all, than that cancels out free will.

Secondly, If we are given free will and then told how we are to live if we don't want to suffer for all eternity, then that in a way, negates free will.

I live with the idea that we always have free will, but we don't always have the best choices available. There is always choice even when it seems that the choices are obvious or that they suck. There is always choice. If you don't like your job or your boss, but you know that there aren't any other jobs available, and you need the money... you can still quit. It just isn't a very desirable choice.

Do we actually have free will? Who knows? I like the idea, but in reality I don't know how much I believe it. I live like I have it. But my personality is so strong that even when I tell myself I need to do something or say something another way... I still don't. Sometimes I feel like a puppet on a string, sometimes I feel like I have all the free will in the world but to no avail as there is someone changing events just to have me dance for them.

This idea is bolstered by my belief that if there were a god he would be a dick, using us for his entertainment, our suffering being his Jersey shore. (Our Jersey Shore being my suffering). It would be like that original star trek episode about the planet of greek gods. They were assholes. That would be god. Only more evil.

Wow!
I've been called a dick head, a dilletante, Illiterate, an educated idiot, weird, and much, much worse, but ineffable is a first..
Don't quite now how to take that one! Huh
(15-10-2011 07:42 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Natural construct?
Okay.
I'm sure both of those explanations are excellent. Too bad i don't understand them.

Philosophy can drive people crazy (but not the Woofster:dodgySmile
Poor old Neitzshe was crazy for 12 years before he died.

A bit of good home spun philosophy/ whateve?, I like, as a C/w fan is Kenny Rogers singing The Gambler
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16-10-2011, 07:20 PM
RE: Free will
Compliment I assure you. No offense intended. I was more or less thinking of this definition, with my tongue in cheek.

not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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27-10-2011, 02:32 AM
RE: Free will
I don't believe that there is ANY free will. Research determinism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
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27-10-2011, 06:49 AM
RE: Free will
The joke's on the legislators, judiciary and law-enforcement agencies, huh? Huge social edifices constructed for the regulation of behaviour that can't be controlled: all those wasted lives! Big Grin

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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27-10-2011, 09:55 PM
RE: Free will
(27-10-2011 02:32 AM)needlr Wrote:  I don't believe that there is ANY free will. Research determinism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Arguments, for thousands of years relating to "free will" generally refer to god giving people free will and on the surface this sounds like an oxymoron.

As for no one having free will.......... it follows that those who don't become serial killers, rapists, torturers etc are simply advantaged by their gene pool.
To me this is determinism carried to a ridiculous extreme.
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28-10-2011, 01:36 AM
RE: Free will
(27-10-2011 09:55 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(27-10-2011 02:32 AM)needlr Wrote:  I don't believe that there is ANY free will. Research determinism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

As for no one having free will.......... it follows that those who don't become serial killers, rapists, torturers etc are simply advantaged by their gene pool.
To me this is determinism carried to a ridiculous extreme.

why? all decisions that one makes are based on a comination of genetics and surroundings (the genetics being a product of previous events). I reckon that right now, you are reading this, because a previous events has made you read this, with events bofore that doing the same...until the original beginning.

Of course the real question is on the extent of accountability. To me, nobody is FULLY accountable for their actions, especially because all morals are human constructs, but I'll avoid the Nihilism and settle with ethics that benefit as much of humanity as fairly possible (utilitarianism).

And yes, I am aware my philosophy is extreme, but with great intelligence of humanity comes some pretty philosophical dilemmas.
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03-11-2011, 06:17 AM
RE: Free will
As future is extant only as simulation emergent in mind - evolution trumps determinism.

As I am evolving Kant's "Good Will" into "the Moral Will," me and Kant know everything... Tongue

As identity is dual-state, a zero-state morality makes sense. Morality is functionality of individual control for all individuals - immoral or amoral individuals refuse to align to current moral paradigm or choose to redefine their own self-control mechanism. Individuals without self-control are not merely insane (Imma certified psychopath) but are largely without function...

Nobody really wants freedom from functionality when they are talking about freedom - mostly people wanna be free to cause their own brand of chaos without having to deal with another's brand of chaos - and this is morality.

I love everybody, but I also know two people who need a killin' - I'm moving. Better for all. Cool

That's an ethical assesment of my own morality - it is more certain that I would kill them on a bad day than forgive them on a good - and everything I know about morality (which may be everything) derives from assessing the only morality that matters - my own. My advancement is not mine - it is enslavement to "love of Another" - the same kinda determinism that has happened in the past, only difference being, my Gwynnies is a whole new kind of chaos.

Evolution, as much as it can be personified, prefers renewing chaos - Nature as mother selects against rather than for - Gaia supports 1.6 billion tool-using monkeys. It is ethical standard and western civilization that has allowed for seven billion individuals to be nearly interconnected by teh netz - it is that inter-connectivity that has allowed this idiot to team up with Kant rather than start from square one...

And it may have taken every single individual on this planet for me to now stand at square zero.

As for the numbers, there ain't no infinity in physics; and random is an infinite calculation - those words don't really work. Freedom don't really work. Zero-state morality will always work because there is no paradigm - it is anarchy - but as has been expressed - killing everybody only makes sense when there's lots of bodies to kill...

And if you don't wanna kill, yer a freaking houspet - ya got yer ethical standard mixed in with yer morality - things like "hate," and "evil" have functionality - it is up to ethical standard to depreciate the meaning of terminology, otherwise the same meaning emerges in new terminology... I don't hafta justify shit, cause I state simple fact: Islamic terrorism is positive morality - positive in that it is "attractive" to Islam. Period. Simple evolution at work. Propaganda is only quick-fix - understanding morality is conceptual engineering - not redefining terminology but engineering concept.

Cause we all have the same conception. We choose. We act. We teach. We learn. All ethical standard is derivative of cultural norms - cultural norms guide the developing morality of the young. I'm an American only so far as America got a whole bunch of shit "right" when it comes to the tough jobs of "having a revolution" and "ruling the world;" but I'm also a Terran waiting for it to happen rather than insist that "America is right" - cause we got a whole buncha shit wrong as well - like Islam in general (Islam is more "eastern civilization." - first coupla hundred years of Christianity was more like terrorism, which Islam learned from, and had a first coupla hundred years that made the world a better place.)

...and it shoulda been "freedom from religion," them fucking wankers. Big Grin

Oh! Did someone mention accountability? Wanna bet that dual-state identity implies the existence of Pure Number as far as concept and meaning apply? That one of me knows my truth as number - number don't know how to lie - so one of me would be mad as hell if I were to die "untrue to myself," hey? That kinda consideration comes from the Koran. In life; positive morality makes one more attractive, negative more repulsive, to the commons.

Why is why science is the only methodology that works for doing stuff. Scientist begins with hypothesis. Falsifiable hypotheses are most useful in engineering - the most useful science to the commons - which would be "evil," in dualism. We know better know. I'm all kinds of "positive evil." I recommend that the ethical standard get to depreciating evil - cause that word does suck. Big Grin

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