Free will
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05-05-2016, 12:35 AM
Free will
So I've been stuck on this carm page. I was reading a section on the Tower of Babel. The topic was about how if gods not the author of confusion why did he spread the people out and give them new languages. The one part that stuck out to me has nothing to do with confusion except.. Doesn't this violate the free will??
"They were seeking to remain one group in one location under their own efforts. Ultimately, this was a defiance of God's proclamation to fill the earth (Gen. 9:1). God wanted them to spread out. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth," (Gen. 11:8-9). Therefore, there is no contradiction since each is a different context and a different subject."
God forced them to do something they didn't want to do.. That's what this says anyway.
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05-05-2016, 12:49 AM
RE: Free will
One has to ask if free will is biblical invention - quick net search revealed that it is not so. It looks like god is innocent of this crime as law prohibiting it has roots in times closer to ours.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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05-05-2016, 01:19 AM
RE: Free will
God violates free will constantly, even the birth of Jesus wasn't Mary's idea, she just got impregnated without God even asking. If you believe he has a plan for everyone that completely nullifies free will at the outset. The story of Babel is just a lame attempt at explaining why so many humans populate our planet and speak different languages. It only makes God look like an asshole.

Even the idea that we have to choose to worship him and love him or suffer by being separated from him forever is not a free choice. Our souls are being held hostage by an insane powerful child sacrificing maniac and we don't get to make the rules or even judge the rules, we must submit or else. This is apparently the case from birth, not only is this not free will it's psychotic and wholly immoral.

Even if you accept that you must perform good acts and be judged you also need to think good thoughts, we're not safe in our own minds, this entire premise laughs in the face of free will if it's true. Lucky for us, it's not true so we can breathe easy.

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05-05-2016, 03:04 AM
RE: Free will
Free will is one way of answering the question "Why is God such a dick?" that Christee apologists have come up with. i.e. The reason everything's shit is because *you guys* (especially unbelieving dogs such as yourselves) sin all the fucking time. The Christee technical word for victim blaming is "Arminianism".

The other answer is "Yes, God is a dick, but he has the right to be a dick because he made us and therefore we cannot judge him". The Christee technical word for Rape/War/Murder-apologist-on-behalf-of-God is "Calvinist".

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-05-2016, 03:27 AM
RE: Free will
(05-05-2016 12:35 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  So I've been stuck on this carm page. I was reading a section on the Tower of Babel. The topic was about how if gods not the author of confusion why did he spread the people out and give them new languages. The one part that stuck out to me has nothing to do with confusion except.. Doesn't this violate the free will??
"They were seeking to remain one group in one location under their own efforts. Ultimately, this was a defiance of God's proclamation to fill the earth (Gen. 9:1). God wanted them to spread out. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth," (Gen. 11:8-9). Therefore, there is no contradiction since each is a different context and a different subject."
God forced them to do something they didn't want to do.. That's what this says anyway.


Well with a strong enough look into human physiology, psychology, and neurology, the very concept of 'free will' itself starts to crumble in the face of determinism.

That being said, it's still rather damning. Now we know that the Babel story isn't true by any stretch, but both lie the blame at the feet of god. Either we have free-will, and god blatantly violates it for his own agenda. Or he put things in place that lead to the same outcome, in which case it's still his fault because he is the prime architect and the one that set up the pieces in that exact fashion.

Of course Christian apologists have spent centuries trying to square those circles, and their efforts have created many different and often contradictory explanations and lead to the rise of rival sects and denominations. It's a right show show all around.

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05-05-2016, 03:55 AM
RE: Free will
Supposedly God is all knowing, which means that he already knows what each individual is going to do at any given time. Yet free will exists so we can make our own choices. It's all an illusion, because God already knows what we care going to choose so we are not actually free in our decisions.
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05-05-2016, 04:54 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2016 04:57 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Free will
(05-05-2016 12:35 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  So I've been stuck on this carm page. I was reading a section on the Tower of Babel. The topic was about how if gods not the author of confusion why did he spread the people out and give them new languages. The one part that stuck out to me has nothing to do with confusion except.. Doesn't this violate the free will??
"They were seeking to remain one group in one location under their own efforts. Ultimately, this was a defiance of God's proclamation to fill the earth (Gen. 9:1). God wanted them to spread out. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth," (Gen. 11:8-9). Therefore, there is no contradiction since each is a different context and a different subject."
God forced them to do something they didn't want to do.. That's what this says anyway.

The very idea of punishment is contradictory to free will, if god respects free will so much, then why punish anyone for exercising it?

And then the chucklefuck doesn't even like human's idea of population management, so he tries to fuck that up for us, and of course that still didn't work, we still built cities. Facepalm

Also, the apologist sites state that the tower of Babel occurred around 1800-2200 B.C.

So god didn't care about the magnificent towering pyramids and large cities in Egypt apparently. FacepalmFacepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-05-2016, 05:20 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2016 07:02 AM by CosmicRaven.)
RE: Free will
Check this out:

Exodus 9:12 Wrote:But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 Wrote:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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05-05-2016, 06:19 AM
RE: Free will
(05-05-2016 12:35 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  So I've been stuck on this carm page. I was reading a section on the Tower of Babel. The topic was about how if gods not the author of confusion why did he spread the people out and give them new languages. The one part that stuck out to me has nothing to do with confusion except.. Doesn't this violate the free will??

Strictly speaking, this doesn't violate free will. God just makes it super hard for them to do the thing they had decided on doing earlier.

Now, there are instances in the Bible of God violating people's free will, this just isn't one of them. Cosmic Raven already mentioned the Exodus story, where YHWH very explicitly makes Pharaoh change his mind.

Also, read Romans 9 (particularly verses 11-22):

"11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12 she was told, “The elder will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,"


The rest of the chapter is talking about the election of Israel and how he as since called the Gentiles, but it doesn't really matter. You still have a god that flat-out admits that he has already decided who you are, what you will be, and whether or not he will harden your heart. Go-go Christian nihilism! Better hope you win the cosmic lottery, because none of your inputs to the system matter!
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05-05-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: Free will
You mighty mophin' calvanisters

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"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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