"Free will"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-06-2016, 05:11 PM
"Free will"
I was raised in the LDS religion with never really believing in it. I was more interested in science,proof, and facts. I find it hard to have discussions with believers when their responses end up with " you have to have faith" or the reason I am posting this " God gave us free will". So my question is how do I respond to someone who says the answer to bad things happening is because God gave us free will? Especially when in the same conversation I hear them talk about Gods master plan, those contradict each other? How can someone believe there is a being in the sky that controls our actions but at the same time gives us free will to make our own choices? Any helpful responses are welcome. Thanks
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like jllewis1's post
07-06-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: "Free will"
(07-06-2016 05:11 PM)jllewis1 Wrote:  How can someone believe there is a being in the sky that controls our actions but at the same time gives us free will to make our own choices? Any helpful responses are welcome. Thanks

You are right. It's a contradiction.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
07-06-2016, 08:56 PM
RE: "Free will"
[Image: religions.bmp]

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Old Man Marsh's post
07-06-2016, 09:10 PM
RE: "Free will"
(07-06-2016 05:11 PM)jllewis1 Wrote:  I was raised in the LDS religion with never really believing in it. I was more interested in science,proof, and facts. I find it hard to have discussions with believers when their responses end up with " you have to have faith" or the reason I am posting this " God gave us free will". So my question is how do I respond to someone who says the answer to bad things happening is because God gave us free will? Especially when in the same conversation I hear them talk about Gods master plan, those contradict each other? How can someone believe there is a being in the sky that controls our actions but at the same time gives us free will to make our own choices? Any helpful responses are welcome. Thanks

The obvious presence in this world of pointless suffering destroys the entire free will apologetic of Christianity as well as the Mormon theodicy of suffering serving a purpose to allow us to become better.

Pointless suffering doesn't allow anyone to become better or involve humans at all.

It contradicts suffering that involves human choice or betterment as a reason for it.

It demonstrates that suffering does not revolve around humanity.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheInquisition's post
07-06-2016, 09:16 PM
RE: "Free will"
(07-06-2016 05:11 PM)jllewis1 Wrote:  So my question is how do I respond to someone who says the answer to bad things happening is because God gave us free will?

Ask them about tidal waves, earthquakes, ebola, malaria, famine, etc.
None of those are the result of man's choice. They are all up to "god".

Ask them about Moses and Pharaoh. Pharaoh changed his mind how many times and god "hardened Pharaoh's heart". Free Will?

Predestination and free will are entirely contradictory. The idea of a "sacred mystery" means theologians haven't been smart enough to figure out an acceptable answer.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
08-06-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: "Free will"
(07-06-2016 05:11 PM)jllewis1 Wrote:  I was raised in the LDS religion with never really believing in it. I was more interested in science,proof, and facts. I find it hard to have discussions with believers when their responses end up with " you have to have faith" or the reason I am posting this " God gave us free will". So my question is how do I respond to someone who says the answer to bad things happening is because God gave us free will? Especially when in the same conversation I hear them talk about Gods master plan, those contradict each other? How can someone believe there is a being in the sky that controls our actions but at the same time gives us free will to make our own choices? Any helpful responses are welcome. Thanks

Free will and many of god's more common attributes are mutually exclusive. Omniscience for example.
- If god knows what I'm going to do then it isn't free will. I'm just acting out a scripted part.
- If god doesn't know what I'm going to do the he isn't omniscient.
- If god does know what I'm going to do but I do something different then he's just plain wrong and omniscience goes out the window with infallibility.

The problem is that the believers need free will to justify all the horrific punishments that god doles out. Not much justice or mercy in sending your wind-up toys to eternal damnation. Even less in making them that way to begin with. If you can't choose then you can't chhose god. God made you an atheist and they all need to shut up and stop mucking with his grand design.

The essential problem is that most religions are cobbled together from bits of older religions and evolve over time. Little thought is given to the philosophical implications. Once you start thinking about them it all goes kablooie.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Paleophyte's post
08-06-2016, 04:14 PM
RE: "Free will"
As it is put in the book 1984, you could call that "doublethink". "The acceptance of contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination." I think you can substitute "political" for "religious" just fine.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Leerob's post
08-06-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: "Free will"
(07-06-2016 09:16 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 05:11 PM)jllewis1 Wrote:  So my question is how do I respond to someone who says the answer to bad things happening is because God gave us free will?

Ask them about tidal waves, earthquakes, ebola, malaria, famine, etc.
None of those are the result of man's choice. They are all up to "god".

Ask them about Moses and Pharaoh. Pharaoh changed his mind how many times and god "hardened Pharaoh's heart". Free Will?

Predestination and free will are entirely contradictory. The idea of a "sacred mystery" means theologians haven't been smart enough to figure out an acceptable answer.

How is the desperate situation of a refugee mother with a starving infant the result of either the infant's or her "free will" ?

1. The classical definition of "free will' from Moral Theology has been debunked. According to that paradigm, ALL the elements of a moral choice have to be present and the person aware of them, before the decision is made. Science has proven some decisions are made before were are aware of them.
2. Long term change is possible, but it's the result of learning and effort. that's not "free will".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
08-06-2016, 04:34 PM
RE: "Free will"
(07-06-2016 05:11 PM)jllewis1 Wrote:  I was raised in the LDS religion with never really believing in it. I was more interested in science,proof, and facts. I find it hard to have discussions with believers when their responses end up with " you have to have faith" or the reason I am posting this " God gave us free will". So my question is how do I respond to someone who says the answer to bad things happening is because God gave us free will? Especially when in the same conversation I hear them talk about Gods master plan, those contradict each other? How can someone believe there is a being in the sky that controls our actions but at the same time gives us free will to make our own choices? Any helpful responses are welcome. Thanks

I was once in the hospital following a serious operation when a random preacher wandered in and assured me that my disease was part of God's great plan. I asked him then if I shouldn't be in the hospital fighting against God's plan. He didn't have enuff common sense to catch what I was saying, just shuffled along about God's Great Plan!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Born Again Pagan's post
08-06-2016, 04:37 PM
RE: "Free will"
And then one has to ask why a loving merciful god, an omniscient god, would create people knowing that they will by their own free will go to hell. If god is omniscient he sees people in hell even before he creates the first atom yet he continues forth creating. What an asshole.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like dancefortwo's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: