Free will?
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09-01-2018, 02:24 PM
RE: Free will?
Telling us we have free will but if we choose wrong we will be tortured forever is no different than the gangster saying "don't make me kill you".

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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09-01-2018, 02:25 PM
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 12:50 PM)elsie1901 Wrote:  What's your rebuttal to the whole "free will" concept? I'm having trouble fully understanding what exactly it is in the first place... But it just seems like a big fat miserable excuse as to "why there's evil in the world".

If the biblical god "has a plan", as most Christians love to say when teriffic things happen, then were does free will come into play. If god has a plan then why do people pray?

The other problem with the Christian concept of free will is their god is omniscient; all knowing, all seeing. If god sees the future and knows all the choices humans will make in advance, including the Eden story, if he even knows every thought humans will make and he knows this even before he said "let there be light", yet he goes ahead with the creation process anyway, then who is responsible for subsequent events and how is it free will?

It gets really convoluted after a while. If god knew all the subsequent events that would take place and that billions of people would roast in hell for eternity then why did he start creation? Is god not in control of himself, or something?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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09-01-2018, 03:38 PM
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 12:50 PM)elsie1901 Wrote:  What's your rebuttal to the whole "free will" concept? I'm having trouble fully understanding what exactly it is in the first place... But it just seems like a big fat miserable excuse as to "why there's evil in the world".
Here is a copy of my paper on the topic.
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5a55366b99af...20Evil.pdf

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09-01-2018, 03:50 PM
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 12:50 PM)elsie1901 Wrote:  What's your rebuttal to the whole "free will" concept?

It seems dubious at best based on all available evidence - Neuroscience of Free Will. ... Just more woo flotsam and jetsom.

#sigh
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09-01-2018, 04:00 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2018 04:18 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 02:21 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(09-01-2018 02:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  In Moral Theology, "Free will" means that humans are able ("free to") choose to do something, or not do something. The underlying assumptions include that all the elements are in a conscious mind, and "available" for consideration, at the time of the choice. So we know the assumptions are false. Most of the elements in a choice are unconscious. Habit, psychology, training, emotional state are all elements that play a part, and are not controllable. Then there is the fact that science has discovered that decisions are made about 6 seconds before we are aware consciously of the choice we make.
https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/...8.751.html
So the classical religious notion of Free Will is totally false. Whether we are free to make long term changes based on "choices", (like the choice to get an education), probably is more like the old notion of free will.

No, the underlying assumption is that consciousness plays an important role in decision-making, even if it is only to exercise its veto power over unconscious impulses. Nor has science proved there is no such ability. See for instance the critiques in the book Free: Why Science Hasn't Disproved Free Will by philosopher Alfred R. Mele.

Consciousness can't exercise veto power, if the decision is made before we are aware of it.
https://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/...7023a.html
http://www.nature.com/articles/nn.2112
https://www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1...ure-moves/
https://phys.org/news/2010-03-free-illus...ogist.html

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09-01-2018, 05:29 PM
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 04:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Consciousness can't exercise veto power, if the decision is made before we are aware of it.

You are assuming what has yet to be proven. If you doubt what I say, read the book I referenced. It's short and quite convincing.
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09-01-2018, 05:38 PM
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 12:50 PM)elsie1901 Wrote:  What's your rebuttal to the whole "free will" concept? I'm having trouble fully understanding what exactly it is in the first place... But it just seems like a big fat miserable excuse as to "why there's evil in the world".

Is there something hindering people from doing what pleases them the most or hurts the least?
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09-01-2018, 05:51 PM
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 05:29 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(09-01-2018 04:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Consciousness can't exercise veto power, if the decision is made before we are aware of it.

You are assuming what has yet to be proven. If you doubt what I say, read the book I referenced. It's short and quite convincing.

Isn't there some forum rule that sets a minimum time period between free will debates?
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09-01-2018, 07:15 PM
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 05:29 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(09-01-2018 04:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Consciousness can't exercise veto power, if the decision is made before we are aware of it.

You are assuming what has yet to be proven. If you doubt what I say, read the book I referenced. It's short and quite convincing.

The guy is a philosopher. I'll take my Neuroscience from a neuroscientist.
How about you summarize 2 of his best arguments.
There is no way one could possibly hold in consciousness multiple elements at war during a decision.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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09-01-2018, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2018 09:04 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Free will?
(09-01-2018 07:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-01-2018 05:29 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  You are assuming what has yet to be proven. If you doubt what I say, read the book I referenced. It's short and quite convincing.

The guy is a philosopher. I'll take my Neuroscience from a neuroscientist.

How about you summarize 2 of his best arguments.

It's not about the neuroscience, as far as it goes. It's about the lack of logic of both the assumptions and the conclusions of the studies.

I will reread the book and offer a summary of a few points in the near future. I don't wish to derail this discussion, so I will add my new comments to the previous determinism discussion.
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