Free will and god?
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20-11-2013, 07:06 AM
Free will and god?
Sorry if this is the wrong place. First thread I'm starting. Also doing this on my cell so my search-fu likely needs work (and the ability to prevent myself getting sucked into reading interesting threads that aren't what I'm looking for at that moment).

I was watching a debate between David Silverman and some dude (I remember DS name because he made a joke about it and I thought it was funny) on atheism vs theism. I'm sorry to say I thought religious dude was a better speaker even if nuts, though DS was a better debater and was closer to correct imo. Anyway, there was a point in there that got me thinking.

The question: Is free will logically impossible in a world where an omniscient god created the universe?

My answer is 'yes' but I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic.
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20-11-2013, 07:34 AM
RE: Free will and god?
Ain't no such thing as free will. Ain't no such thing as God. And howdy howdy, ho. [Image: Tip-Hat.gif] Welcome to the Monkey House.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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20-11-2013, 07:57 AM
RE: Free will and god?
Theological answer: no.

Imagine a sheet of paper. On it, there is a grid of dots, 100 x 100, let's say. To "live," you connect the dots from left to right. Some will go straight across, some will wander; but god sees the dots. It's not complicated.

Real answer: that ain't even a question. Tongue

"Free will" is a piss-poor expression of decision space. Individual factors are determined, to which Girly alludes, but I'm thinking there's some chaos in there that makes the overall assumption that "free will doesn't exist" flawed. And omnigod is just, not. People came up with omnigod back in the day when everybody was like, "my god is bigger than your god." Being the schemers that they are, some priestly types just skipped ahead. "Hey, our God is Omni. Checkmate, atheists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!!"

Yet at the same time they imagine a Moses in the clouds. With a dick. Dodgy

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20-11-2013, 08:09 AM
RE: Free will and god?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBtT-Gl4vQ
Ain't no "free will".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
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20-11-2013, 08:09 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 07:06 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  Sorry if this is the wrong place. First thread I'm starting. Also doing this on my cell so my search-fu likely needs work (and the ability to prevent myself getting sucked into reading interesting threads that aren't what I'm looking for at that moment).

I was watching a debate between David Silverman and some dude (I remember DS name because he made a joke about it and I thought it was funny) on atheism vs theism. I'm sorry to say I thought religious dude was a better speaker even if nuts, though DS was a better debater and was closer to correct imo. Anyway, there was a point in there that got me thinking.

The question: Is free will logically impossible in a world where an omniscient god created the universe?

My answer is 'yes' but I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic.

It depends on the perspective. If God knows everything, our actions are completely predictable by Him and so we do not have a free will.

From our (people) perspective, we may still have free will. If everything goes according to God's plan, but God's plan is unknowable, then assuming that
we do have a free will will never lead to a contradiction.

Almost all human interaction presumes free will, so I presume this as well.
Although there are limitations to our free will, it has never been shown
that we have none at all. Some atheists deny the free will. But in my
opinion, there arguments are based on the "God perspective".

I have seen theists argue for and against free will. Sometimes, they assume
a weakened omniscience for God, so that people still have free will.
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20-11-2013, 08:16 AM
RE: Free will and god?
I run the risk here of showing a lack of understanding of the academic side of this discussion but with a view to be educated I'm going to say this. Free will does exist. We exercise it all of the time. Even within the confines of legal and social rules we still make a choice to follow. I am aware on a surface level of arguments from biology and we're slaves to our own memes etc: but if we don't have free will why do we spend so much energy and time trying to influence or change things? ... Great thread, I'm interested in this sort of thing too and look forward to the, no doubt, multitude of academically weighty posts that send my head in to a spiral, doubting whether or not I do have free will. Then I'll read up loads about it but not knowing if I had any choice in the matter! Tongue

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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20-11-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 08:16 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  ... look forward to the, no doubt, multitude of academically weighty posts...

Are you sure you're in the right place? Tongue

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20-11-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 07:06 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  The question: Is free will logically impossible in a world where an omniscient god created the universe?

My answer is 'yes' but I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic.
Depends on how you define free will.

If you define it based on outcomes (as critics generally do), then the apparent answer is that free will is not possible. an outcomes-based definition is along the lines of "If I have free will, I could post on the forum tomorrow or not post, but God knows that I will post, so no free will." However, I've looked at these using formal logic and it usually boils down to free will being impossible with an outcomes definition regardless of the existence of omniscience.

With a process-based definition, free will is compatible with omniscience. Process-based means that I considered reasons to post and not to post and made a decision. That God knew which I would choose doesn't invalidate the process.

Over time I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if we don't have free will. First, note the purpose of the free will argument. The charge is that if we don't have some amount of moral free will, then God is unjust to judge us.

However, if omniscience means that our every thought was predetermined by God, then we don't exist as autonomous agents with rights to just treatment. Consider "I think, therefore I am." If omniscience means that I don't really think, then I am not.
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20-11-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 08:31 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 08:16 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  ... look forward to the, no doubt, multitude of academically weighty posts...

Are you sure you're in the right place? Tongue

Haha. Fair point Smile

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20-11-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: Free will and god?
We have free will.

God gave it to us.

We had no choice.

Dodgy

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