Free will and god?
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26-11-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(26-11-2013 11:00 AM)Free Wrote:  From a scientific point of view, if you have accepted The Big Bang as the origin of existence, then Free Will cannot mathematically exist. The reasoning is because all things have been predetermined from the first strike that ignited the Big Bang, much the same way as striking the cue ball in a pool game and knowing what the outcome will be. It's like a domino effect; one thing is the cause of the next thing, and so on.
We know that there is a very strong aspect of randomness at the quantum level, albeit predictably random. So if we were to start off the universe again in exactly the same way, the results would be different. Same thing goes for evolution, the mutations are random, so if we started it all off in exactly the same way, in exactly the same conditions, the result would be different

(26-11-2013 11:00 AM)Free Wrote:  If, for the most part, existence is random, then Free Will can exist within the randomness.
But we cannot control the randomness with our will power. (It has never been observed that we can control randomness e.g. quantum fluctuations or radioactive decay or genetic mutations etc). So how do you reason that randomness allows for free will?
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26-11-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(26-11-2013 06:45 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ^Old married couple. Dodgy
Jesus, I hope my wife never turns into some obnoxious walking insult. Hobo
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26-11-2013, 11:45 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(26-11-2013 11:25 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 06:45 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ^Old married couple. Dodgy
Jesus, I hope my wife never turns into some obnoxious walking insult. Hobo

That shit ain't happening in a vacuum, Stevil.

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26-11-2013, 12:08 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(26-11-2013 11:45 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 11:25 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Jesus, I hope my wife never turns into some obnoxious walking insult. Hobo

That shit ain't happening in a vacuum, Stevil.
I haven't been instigating it.
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26-11-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(26-11-2013 12:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 11:45 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  That shit ain't happening in a vacuum, Stevil.
I haven't been instigating it.

That's what they all say. Dodgy

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26-11-2013, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2013 12:54 PM by Free.)
RE: Free will and god?
(26-11-2013 11:19 AM)Stevil Wrote:  But we cannot control the randomness with our will power. (It has never been observed that we can control randomness e.g. quantum fluctuations or radioactive decay or genetic mutations etc). So how do you reason that randomness allows for free will?

Where ever there is consciousness, Free Will can exist within a random environment. With this Free Will we can alter randomness through physical interaction and therefore bring forth order (determinism) from chaos (randomness).

Understand that both Determinism and Randomness can co-exist, and may not be the separate theories we think they are.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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27-11-2013, 02:25 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(26-11-2013 12:49 PM)Free Wrote:  Where ever there is consciousness, Free Will can exist within a random environment.
But how does randomness equate to free will?

Surely if random events are beyond the control of our will power then we can't use that as an excuse to believe in Free Will.
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27-11-2013, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2013 09:31 AM by Free.)
RE: Free will and god?
(27-11-2013 02:25 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 12:49 PM)Free Wrote:  Where ever there is consciousness, Free Will can exist within a random environment.
But how does randomness equate to free will?

Where ever randomness exists, it can randomly produce consciousness. With consciousness, Free Will can develop. Then, Free Will can enable one to interact with that which is random, and create order (determinism) from the chaos (randomness).

It is not a matter of equating. It is a matter of co-existence.

Quote:Surely if random events are beyond the control of our will power then we can't use that as an excuse to believe in Free Will.

If random events were beyond the control of our free will, then nothing could be re-shaped into the things we see every day. We could not convert a tree into wooden products, or plant a flag on the moon.

Really though, it all comes down to the chicken and the egg. However, I am of the school of thought that what we perceive to be the universe was not ever created; never had an origin, and will never see an end.

As science already knows, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, yet it exists nonetheless. This should tell you that energy itself is an eternal force that had no origin and will have no ending. Hence, this is scientific evidence to support an eternal/infinite universe. Another way to understand the eternal/infinite concept is to start counting numbers ... 1, 2, 3 ... and you already know there will be no end, and in this respect, the eternal/infinite is demonstrated to exist.

What this means is that a Big Bang may indeed have happened, but it was not the origin of existence as we know it.

There was no origin to existence. It just simply always was there, and both randomness and determinism have co-existed, and will always exist, forever.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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27-11-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(27-11-2013 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 02:25 AM)Stevil Wrote:  But how does randomness equate to free will?

Where ever randomness exists, it can randomly produce consciousness. With consciousness, Free Will can develop.
How do we know that free will can develop?
(27-11-2013 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Surely if random events are beyond the control of our will power then we can't use that as an excuse to believe in Free Will.

If random events were beyond the control of our free will, then nothing could be re-shaped into the things we see every day. We could not convert a tree into wooden products, or plant a flag on the moon.
I'm not sure that this is true.
From randomness stars and planets formed as solar systems, replicating structures formed such as RNA, DNA, Cells, animals, plants, trees etc. These systems are far more ordered, structured and complex than anything humans have been able to build. The best of our wooden products, our space ships etc look primitive and rudementary in comparison.

(27-11-2013 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  What this means is that a Big Bang may indeed have happened, but it was not the origin of existence as we know it.
Scientists don't know what was around prior to the big bang.

(27-11-2013 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  There was no origin to existence. It just simply always was there, and both randomness and determinism have co-existed, and will always exist, forever.
This is quite possibly true.
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30-11-2013, 08:41 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(27-11-2013 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  With consciousness, Free Will can develop. Then, Free Will can enable one to interact with that which is random, and create order (determinism) from the chaos (randomness).
I don't think there is such thing as "free-will" our every action,thought process is determined by our driving instincts.

How is that "Free" exactly ? i'm not "Free" from my instincts,no matter what i do i cannot control it.
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