Free will and god?
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30-11-2013, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2013 01:58 PM by Free.)
RE: Free will and god?
(30-11-2013 08:41 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  With consciousness, Free Will can develop. Then, Free Will can enable one to interact with that which is random, and create order (determinism) from the chaos (randomness).
I don't think there is such thing as "free-will" our every action,thought process is determined by our driving instincts.

How is that "Free" exactly ? i'm not "Free" from my instincts,no matter what i do i cannot control it.

I do not deny that our most primal instincts are the driving force behind what we do. Nor do I deny that there is any such thing as a selfless act; every last thing we do is selfish, no matter what it is.

But when I speak of free will, I am speaking about the ability to make choices. Inevitably though, every last choice we make will be a selfish choice. It is impossible to make any choice that is not in our own best interests.

But yet when we do make those choices, that in itself appears to be an act of free will, albeit somewhat restrictive. But regardless of any restrictions, the fact that we can choose one selfish option over another appears to be indicative of a certain degree of free will.

It should also be noted that whether or not we have free will has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of god. Being an atheist, it is simply a foregone conclusion that there are no gods.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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01-12-2013, 01:08 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(30-11-2013 08:41 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  With consciousness, Free Will can develop. Then, Free Will can enable one to interact with that which is random, and create order (determinism) from the chaos (randomness).
I don't think there is such thing as "free-will" our every action,thought process is determined by our driving instincts.

How is that "Free" exactly ? i'm not "Free" from my instincts,no matter what i do i cannot control it.
We cannot control everything, but that means that our freedom is limited, not that it does not exist.
Besides, our driving insticts, our drive, IS part of our free will.
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01-12-2013, 07:54 AM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2013 08:09 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 01:08 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  We cannot control everything, but that means that our freedom is limited, not that it does not exist.
Then that's not "Free will " that's "Limited/saturated will"
Quote:Besides, our driving insticts, our drive, IS part of our free will.
No,they snatch our freedom actually,if i feel tired i'm forced to put down my work and take rest i have no say in the matter it takes one hell of a disciplned person to actually control insticnts at mere will.

Philhellnes explains it better in this video.

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01-12-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 07:54 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(01-12-2013 01:08 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  We cannot control everything, but that means that our freedom is limited, not that it does not exist.
Then that's not "Free will " that's "Limited/saturated will"

Seems like so much quibbling over the definition of "free".

Quote:
Quote:Besides, our driving insticts, our drive, IS part of our free will.
No,they snatch our freedom actually,if i feel tired i'm forced to put down my work and take rest i have no say in the matter

Sort of like saying, "I can't breathe underwater or flap my arms and fly to the moon, therefore I don't have free will."

Quote: it takes one hell of a disciplned person to actually control insticnts at mere will.

But it happens sometimes, right? "No Black Swans" ring a bell...?

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01-12-2013, 08:57 AM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2013 11:34 PM by IndianAtheist.)
Music RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 08:39 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Seems like so much quibbling over the definition of "free".
Exactly people use it too often without realizing the repercussions of that word.
Quote:Sort of like saying, "I can't breathe underwater or flap my arms and fly to the moon, therefore I don't have free will."
It was more of an example on how we are bound by our instincts not exactly "free-choice' if your instincts regulate that choice.
Quote:But it happens sometimes, right? "No Black Swans" ring a bell...?
"Sometimes" a budha is born otherwise we wouldn't have obesity crisis if people had instincts under control.
[Image: graph.png]

Also keep in mind that India has 70% freaking poverty!
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01-12-2013, 09:03 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 07:54 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(01-12-2013 01:08 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  We cannot control everything, but that means that our freedom is limited, not that it does not exist.
Then that's not "Free will " that's "Limited/saturated will"
limited free will is still free will. My bank account is limited, but I still have money in my account. As long is a make some free choices, I have free will.

For example, I wanted to reply to your post, and I did. I exercised my free will.
My free choice is undisputable. And if you want, I can demonstrate my free over and over again.
Quote:
Quote:Besides, our driving insticts, our drive, IS part of our free will.
No,they snatch our freedom actually,if i feel tired i'm forced to put down my work and take rest i have no say in the matter it takes one hell of a disciplned person to actually control insticnts at mere will.

Philhellnes explains it better in this video.

You are not forced to put down your work when you tired. I often work,
even though I am tired. It is your choice. To a large extend, you can resist
the instincts to eat, sleep, have sex etc. Of course it is limited, after days of sleep deprivation you will have no choice but to fall a sleep. But for one night,
you have the choice to go to bed and sleep, or to stay awake all night and party.

I consider the monkey video a bit of a fallacy. It artificially splits you up as two persons, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide....
You could call your free will "monkey". Then everything the monkey wants,
you want. So one could argue, you don't have free choice because you have
to do what the monkey wants you to do, neglecting the fact that you ARE the monkey.
If the monkey is just your primal instincts, then of course, you CAN resist it
as I explained earlier.
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01-12-2013, 10:21 AM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2013 10:28 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 09:03 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  limited free will is still free will. My bank account is limited, but I still have money in my account. As long is a make some free choices, I have free will.
Well let's stop using the word "Free" alright ? let's just call it "Restricted will" instead.

you don't really have much freedom in your choices either the only person who ever had a "Free will" is probably a freaking duke.

>For example, I wanted to reply to your post, and I did. I exercised my free will
Well you felt obliged to do so in a way that is not really freedom of will as much as it is a freedom of choice.
Quote:My free choice is undisputable. And if you want, I can demonstrate my free over and over again.[quote]Not if you are pointed a magnum in your temple your free choice is easily disputable.
[quote]To a large extend, you can resist
the instincts to eat, sleep, have sex etc
"Resist" is a very vague word it almost shows that you certainly have no control over those instincts and that's why you're not really free.
Quote:I consider the monkey video a bit of a fallacy. It artificially splits you up as two persons, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide....
Yeah but only metaphorically.

Quote:You could call your free will "monkey".
There's no such thing as freedom of will you only have freedom of choices which severely depends on other factors like instincts and knowledge on certain subjects.
Quote:So one could argue, you don't have free choice because you have
to do what the monkey wants you to do, neglecting the fact that you ARE the monkey.
its metaphorical phil merely says that you should understand your instincts so that you could better prepare yourself to deal with it.
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01-12-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Free will and god?
Relative to my previous posts regarding Determinism and Randomness, to me it appears to be a somewhat complex case in which we exact free will from determinism. In a sense, as opposed to creating order out of chaos, we create chaos out of order by employing free will.

This appears to be consistent with my position that both Determinism and Randomness co-exist, since it is my position that existence as a whole had no origin in opposition to the singularity we know as the Big Bang.

Again, the Big Bang most likely did occur, but because we cannot answer the question of where it came from in the first place, we cannot state with any degree of certainty that it in itself is the origin of existence. It could have been merely one in an endless series of Big Bangs occurring throughout eternity in an infinite universe.

Yet, because we have the ability to make choices, this seems to demonstrate the employment of free will.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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01-12-2013, 02:35 PM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2013 02:41 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 11:57 AM)Free Wrote:  Relative to my previous posts regarding Determinism and Randomness, to me it appears to be a somewhat complex case in which we exact free will from determinism. In a sense, as opposed to creating order out of chaos, we create chaos out of order by employing free will.
For the last time.. i'll make this clear "Free will" is an illusiory word,when you think deep into it you'll realize that is not real.

AND Besides what is "Free" anyway ? we know that choice is a simple decision but what is that decision "Free" from exactly ? because as far as that decision goes plently of factors affect that choice.

If i point a gun to you and tell you that you have "Free choice" to get shot or run away is that really free choice ? or am inadvertently forcing you to choose "Run away" ? that's not really a "Free choice" now is it ?

You can have freedom of Choice in many instances but you'll never have freedom of will becasue your will is directed by your instincts and that is not in your control you can "Resist" its infulence on you but you can never control it.

Otherwise i would just "Will" myself to be happy.. yet i cannot do that because i CANNOT control my instincts i need narcotics to do that for me.

In short you can only have 'Free will" as long you are able to act like an automated robot with a conciousness of a human brain which is quite contradictory because you can't be both.

Only the religious adhere to this fallcious concept of "Free will" when in reality there's no such thing as that.
Quote:This appears to be consistent with my position that both Determinism and Randomness co-exist
It depends on what you consider "randomness" for me nothing is exactly random in a puerely scientific sense everything has a reason behind it.
Quote:Yet, because we have the ability to make choices, this seems to demonstrate the employment of free will.
FREE WILL IS NOT FREE CHOICE.

Don't use terminology loosly,it gets unecesserily confusing.

EDIT: This video shows it

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01-12-2013, 04:58 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 02:35 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(01-12-2013 11:57 AM)Free Wrote:  Relative to my previous posts regarding Determinism and Randomness, to me it appears to be a somewhat complex case in which we exact free will from determinism. In a sense, as opposed to creating order out of chaos, we create chaos out of order by employing free will.
For the last time.. i'll make this clear "Free will" is an illusiory word,when you think deep into it you'll realize that is not real.

I heard you the first time, but my "free will" gave me the choice to ignore your non-supported statement. I have indeed thought very deep on this subject, yet you obviously have not since you have failed to understand that "free will" essentially means the ability to make choices.

Quote:AND Besides what is "Free" anyway ? we know that choice is a simple decision but what is that decision "Free" from exactly ? because as far as that decision goes plently of factors affect that choice.

If i point a gun to you and tell you that you have "Free choice" to get shot or run away is that really free choice ? or am inadvertently forcing you to choose "Run away" ? that's not really a "Free choice" now is it ?

Obviously you do not understand what the word "free" actually means in relation to "free will." It means "freedom," which means "the power or right to act, speak, or think as one chooses to."

In regards to your horrible analogy, you can still choose to get shot. If you have a death wish, stay and get shot.

A better analogy is one which nothing is gained or lost. A random game of chance, for example, in which a ball is placed under one of two cups, while you are covering your eyes so that you cannot see which one of the cups is hiding the ball. There is nothing gained or lost if you choose either cup.

Quote:You can have freedom of Choice in many instances but you'll never have freedom of will becasue your will is directed by your instincts and that is not in your control you can "Resist" its infulence on you but you can never control it.

Now you have also demonstrated that you do not understand the definition of "will." Below are the top three definitions of "will" in relation to this argument of free will:

Quote:1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.
2. power of choosing one's own actions: to have a strong or a weak will.
3. the act or process of using or asserting one's choice; volition: My hands are obedient to my will.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/will?s=t

Quote:Don't use terminology loosly,it gets unecesserily confusing.

You say that to me when you have conclusively demonstrated that you do not have a single clue what we are talking about here?

Seriously?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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