Free will and god?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-12-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(02-12-2013 09:13 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(02-12-2013 08:54 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  but......
I really like the video clip you shared.
(and for trivia points -- it's from the movie: Housesitter?)
Actually its from the movie Planes, Trains & Automobiles - 1987 but i just found on NC website actually.

Awww shit - and I pride myself on movie trivia. *kicks dust* dammit.

and Free is a good poster from the posts I've read. You might disagree but Free is no troll.
(Free I like your posts - regardless of color of name, stars, etc)


cheers all around

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(01-12-2013 05:53 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(01-12-2013 04:58 PM)Free Wrote:  I heard you the first time, but my "free will" gave me the choice to ignore your non-supported statement.
NO i'm afraid that's just a bunch of neurons firing together to form a cohesive choice.
But the firing of the neurons that led to the cohesive choice were caused
by his free will. He wanted to ignore you, and the result was, that he did ignore you.
The mechanism how his "wanting" led to the "action" (or non-action in this case)
is irrelevant.

if I sent you a postcard, then I might not control whether the postcard is shipped
by road or by air etc., but the result is that you receive the postcard.
My desire to send you a postcard, resulted in you receiving a postcard.
The mechanism is irrelevant, and I may not control the details of the
mechanism.
Quote:There's no such thing as "Free will" just like there's no such thing as a soul.
Quote:you have failed to understand that "free will" essentially means the ability to make choices


there's only "Free choice" and even that highly depends on the situation when the choice was made.
Quote:Obviously you do not understand what the word "free" actually means in relation to "free will." It means "freedom," which means "the power or right to act, speak, or think as one chooses to."
Now you're using flimsy and vague semantics. "Think as one chooses to" How the hell is that even possible ? if you're panicking how can you "Choose" to not panic ? its impossible.
Quote:In regards to your horrible analogy, you can still choose to get shot. If you have a death wish, stay and get shot.
But is that a "FREE CHOICE" ? NO IT IS NOT because so many biased factors are affecting your choice its impossible for it be a free-choice unless you're high or something.
Quote:A better analogy is one which nothing is gained or lost.
that's would be an analogy where free-choice is possible,i presented you with a situation where free-choice is not possible.
Quote:Now you have also demonstrated that you do not understand the definition of "will."
No you're just ruling out actual definitions because they don't support your argument like using "Free will" instead of "Free choice" which is the correct terminology btw.
Online Mirriam Webster:

free will (noun)
: the ability to choose how to act

: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

In other words, "free will" is the same as "free choice"
Some dictionaries even list these as synonyms.
In any case, I use these terms interchangeable. Deal with it!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes black_squirrel's post
04-12-2013, 02:56 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 03:15 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Free will and god?
(04-12-2013 12:33 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  But the firing of the neurons that led to the cohesive choice were caused
by his free will.
That's a seriously baseless assumption how can a sensory output be considered one's free will ? is muscle spasm also free will ? that's just like conceptualizing something that isn't even there.
Quote:The mechanism how his "wanting" led to the "action" (or non-action in this case)
is irrelevant.
How is it irrelevant if it leads to the action ? it is a contributing factor.

>My desire to send you a postcard, resulted in you receiving a postcard.
My desire to fly in space doesn't result in flying in space ? as you said "The mechanism is irrelevant,and i may not control the details of the mechanism" i think you're confusing the mere ability to think with the ability to control your own will(NOT a simple choice).

In essence free will is being in control what you think next which is impossible because your next thought is processed in your unconscious part of your brain and you're not really in control of your unconscious now are you ?

>The mechanism is irrelevant, and I may not control the details of the
mechanism

Then its not really "Free will" now is it ? its restricted and being affected by so many factors the very definition from wikipedia of free will is "ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors"

and also this "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

Clearly you are not free from prior causes like your memories,events which actually made you mail me a postcard.

Any decision we make has to have a cause, because we are making it for a reason,if we have a decision that has a cause, and that cause has a cause, and that cause has a cause, and you’re going back in time in a causal regression that ultimately leads to before our birth, before the Planet was created, and to the time of the Big Bang, free will must be impossible.

Are you telling me that you were in absolute control what you think next and nothing around you affects you a even bit ? if that's true then yes you have "Free will" by the definition.

If you're just merely making casual choices on your own volition its not really free-will,your will is regulated by many factors.
Quote:free will (noun)
: the ability to choose how to act
: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

In other words, "free will" is the same as "free choice"
Some dictionaries even list these as synonyms.
In any case, I use these terms interchangeable. Deal with it!
Except i do not agree that Free will is anything more than an illusory word Causality and Randomness makes Free Will Impossible.

Its like saying See the definition of God ? yeah he exists deal with it ! no he doesn't exist neither does free will you are in as much of in control of your will as you were in control of your birth or when you're sleeping.

Correlation does not imply Causation free will is NOT free choice and i can't stress that enough.
(04-12-2013 12:16 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  and Free is a good poster from the posts I've read. You might disagree but Free is no troll.
(Free I like your posts - regardless of color of name, stars, etc)
Well i don't really care about dissenting opinions i just take issue with him being a condescending prick.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(04-12-2013 02:56 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 12:33 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  But the firing of the neurons that led to the cohesive choice were caused
by his free will.
That's a seriously baseless assumption how can a sensory output be considered one's free will ? is muscle spasm also free will ? that's just like conceptualizing something that isn't even there.
Quote:The mechanism how his "wanting" led to the "action" (or non-action in this case)
is irrelevant.
How is it irrelevant if it leads to the action ? it is a contributing factor.

>My desire to send you a postcard, resulted in you receiving a postcard.
My desire to fly in space doesn't result in flying in space ? as you said "The mechanism is irrelevant,and i may not control the details of the mechanism" i think you're confusing the mere ability to think with the ability to control your own will(NOT a simple choice).

In essence free will is being in control what you think next which is impossible because your next thought is processed in your unconscious part of your brain and you're not really in control of your unconscious now are you ?

>The mechanism is irrelevant, and I may not control the details of the
mechanism

Then its not really "Free will" now is it ? its restricted and being affected by so many factors the very definition from wikipedia of free will is "ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors"

and also this "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

Clearly you are not free from prior causes like your memories,events which actually made you mail me a postcard.

Any decision we make has to have a cause, because we are making it for a reason,if we have a decision that has a cause, and that cause has a cause, and that cause has a cause, and you’re going back in time in a causal regression that ultimately leads to before our birth, before the Planet was created, and to the time of the Big Bang, free will must be impossible.

Are you telling me that you were in absolute control what you think next and nothing around you affects you a even bit ? if that's true then yes you have "Free will" by the definition.

If you're just merely making casual choices on your own volition its not really free-will,your will is regulated by many factors.
Quote:free will (noun)
: the ability to choose how to act
: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God

In other words, "free will" is the same as "free choice"
Some dictionaries even list these as synonyms.
In any case, I use these terms interchangeable. Deal with it!
Except i do not agree that Free will is anything more than an illusory word Causality and Randomness makes Free Will Impossible.

Its like saying See the definition of God ? yeah he exists deal with it ! no he doesn't exist neither does free will you are in as much of in control of your will as you were in control of your birth or when you're sleeping.

Correlation does not imply Causation free will is NOT free choice and i can't stress that enough.
(04-12-2013 12:16 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  and Free is a good poster from the posts I've read. You might disagree but Free is no troll.
(Free I like your posts - regardless of color of name, stars, etc)
Well i don't really care about dissenting opinions i just take issue with him being a condescending prick.


You don't care for opinions that differ from your own? How wise of you.Laughat
Got it.


check pleaseDrinking Beverage

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 07:49 PM
RE: Free will and god?
Well this thread got fairly heated! (again) I don't wish to get drawn in to the meat of it for now but concerning reference. This subject has drawn me in somewhat, I'm currently ploughing through the audio book Freedom Evolves, Daniel Dennett (thanks for the tip Chippy) but I'd like some credible sources referenced for the against free will camp if anyone would like to point me in the right direction for those please? ... I'll get back on to this thread with my opinion, in about 6 months Tongue

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

Im_Ryan forum member
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-12-2013, 08:33 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 09:13 PM by Free.)
RE: Free will and god?
(04-12-2013 02:56 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 12:33 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  But the firing of the neurons that led to the cohesive choice were caused by his free will.
That's a seriously baseless assumption how can a sensory output be considered one's free will? is muscle spasm also free will ? that's just like conceptualizing something that isn't even there.

This is a false analogy, since we are speaking about something that involves making a choice and then you are attempting to compare it to something (muscle spasms) that has no choice.

Quote:In essence free will is being in control what you think next which is impossible because your next thought is processed in your unconscious part of your brain and you're not really in control of your unconscious now are you?

There are a number of problems with this:

1. Can you conclusively demonstrate that the unconscious/subconscious mind actually exists? Click the link below and scroll down to "Controversy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_mind

2. Can you conclusively demonstrate that if the unconscious/subconscious mind does exist, that we have absolutely no control over it?

3. If we are not in control of our supposed unconscious/subconscious mind, how then is it possible to rationalize situations in our consciousness and then change our mind when we decide to not do something that we originally committed ourselves to do? Our ability to consciously rationalize situations has nothing to do with our unconscious mind, if it in itself even exists.

You see, your premise is built by using one theoretical situation (no free will) and stacking it upon another theoretical situation (the unconscious mind), and then passing it off as a positive claim.

This simply does not work for a rational mind.

Quote:>The mechanism is irrelevant, and I may not control the details of the
mechanism

Then its not really "Free will" now is it ? its restricted and being affected by so many factors the very definition from wikipedia of free will is "ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors"

It appears that you have not read and understood the above correctly. The part that says "unconstrained by certain factors" does not imply that the meaning of "unconstrained by any and all factors."

Quote:and also this "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention"

You do not appear to have understood the above either. The part that says "not determined by prior causes" means that humans can make choices regarding things that have not already been determined previously by causes beyond human control. But not all things have been determined by prior causes.

Quote:Clearly you are not free from prior causes like your memories,events which actually made you mail me a postcard.

Yet he consciously makes a decision whether or not to send you a postcard.


Quote:Any decision we make has to have a cause, because we are making it for a reason,if we have a decision that has a cause, and that cause has a cause, and that cause has a cause, and you’re going back in time in a causal regression that ultimately leads to before our birth, before the Planet was created, and to the time of the Big Bang, free will must be impossible.

That may be true only if Detrerminism is the only truth at the exclusion of Randomness. And once again, you are stacking another theory on top of your two previous theories. Because of this, your position cannot be demonstrated to be true until you conclusively demonstrate that all of your 3 theories are the absolute truth.

Keep in mind that this entire discussion is completely based upon theories, therefore nothing you or anyone else claims can ever be proven.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-12-2013, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2013 03:51 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Free will and god?
(04-12-2013 03:51 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You don't care for opinions that differ from your own? How wise of you.Laughat
Got it.
Nah not in that sense,i just don't mind talking to a person with differing opinions as long the person is well.. not being an inconsiderate assConfused

On the subject matter i think everyone should just watch neurologist Sam harris's video on Free Will.

He makes the same arguments and points as i do here,while debating i just keep getting caught up in wordplay and anecdotal definitions of others.



I won't lie this guy seriously looks like ben stiller Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: