Free will and god?
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20-11-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 07:06 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  The question: Is free will logically impossible in a world where an omniscient god created the universe?

My answer is 'yes' but I'm having a bit of trouble with the logic.
One other interesting aspect of this topic. Does it matter if the god is also omnipotent?

I've seen some atheists claim that omnipotence means the ability to do anything, even the logically impossible, when it suits them. Yet, I've seen the same people make the charge regarding free will when it suits them. Tis is an ad hoc or special pleading fallacy. You can't have it both ways.
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20-11-2013, 08:52 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 08:45 AM)alpha male Wrote:  I've seen some atheists claim that omnipotence means the ability to do anything, even the logically impossible, when it suits them. Yet, I've seen the same people make the charge regarding free will when it suits them. Tis is an ad hoc or special pleading fallacy. You can't have it both ways.

It's theists who want it both ways. Atheists don't believe in god. If someone claims their god is omnipotent, the following becomes true:

1. That god is all knowing;
2. That god knows every fate and decision before it's made;
3. You don't have free-will, because your decisions and fate are already known. The script for your life exists; you cannot change it;

If a god is not an omnipotent, all-knowing being, then free-will is up for grabs. Problem is, some theists want to claim omnipotence AND free-will. Well, which is it? Are our fates pre-determined (free-will is meaningless) or does god have no idea what will happen? If it's the former, then judgement after death is unfair as our fates were already determined. If it's the latter, then your god is not truly all-knowing.

Pick one, or if you feel I've presented a false dichotomy, present additional choices.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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20-11-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 08:52 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  It's theists who want it both ways. Atheists don't believe in god. If someone claims their god is omnipotent, the following becomes true:

1. That god is all knowing;
2. That god knows every fate and decision before it's made;
3. You don't have free-will, because your decisions and fate are already known. The script for your life exists; you cannot change it;

If a god is not an omnipotent, all-knowing being, then free-will is up for grabs. Problem is, some theists want to claim omnipotence AND free-will. Well, which is it? Are our fates pre-determined (free-will is meaningless) or does god have no idea what will happen? If it's the former, then judgement after death is unfair as our fates were already determined. If it's the latter, then your god is not truly all-knowing.

Pick one, or if you feel I've presented a false dichotomy, present additional choices.
I already have. See my previous post.
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20-11-2013, 09:02 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 08:52 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 08:45 AM)alpha male Wrote:  I've seen some atheists claim that omnipotence means the ability to do anything, even the logically impossible, when it suits them. Yet, I've seen the same people make the charge regarding free will when it suits them. Tis is an ad hoc or special pleading fallacy. You can't have it both ways.

It's theists who want it both ways. Atheists don't believe in god. If someone claims their god is omnipotent, the following becomes true:

1. That god is all knowing;
2. That god knows every fate and decision before it's made;
3. You don't have free-will, because your decisions and fate are already known. The script for your life exists; you cannot change it;

If a god is not an omnipotent, all-knowing being, then free-will is up for grabs. Problem is, some theists want to claim omnipotence AND free-will. Well, which is it? Are our fates pre-determined (free-will is meaningless) or does god have no idea what will happen? If it's the former, then judgement after death is unfair as our fates were already determined. If it's the latter, then your god is not truly all-knowing.

Pick one, or if you feel I've presented a false dichotomy, present additional choices.

So it follows with this ^^ in mind then:-

Christians must chose/accept jesus to be saved... but... God is omnipotent and therefore choice doesn't exist?! That's some well thought out theology right there Big Grin

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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20-11-2013, 09:03 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 08:52 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  1. That god is all knowing;
2. That god knows every fate and decision before it's made;
3. You don't have free-will, because your decisions and fate are already known. The script for your life exists; you cannot change it;

The flaw with that reasoning is assuming the god perspective. Like, I'm watching The Vampire Diaries? (Again, cause I'm such a girl) So, I know what's gonna happen, but Elena doesn't. Just 'cause god knows everything, it's still all new to me.

What I'm sayin', anyway. Big Grin

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20-11-2013, 09:03 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 08:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBtT-Gl4vQ
Ain't no "free will".

A little too soon to say that. We don't know enough about mind to leap to that conclusion based on a few experiments.

You can, of course, choose to believe it. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-11-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 09:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The flaw with that reasoning is assuming the god perspective. Like, I'm watching The Vampire Diaries? (Again, cause I'm such a girl) So, I know what's gonna happen, but Elena doesn't. Just 'cause god knows everything, it's still all new to me.

What I'm sayin', anyway. Big Grin
The time-travel scenarios are interesting.

First assume that natural determinism is false and there is no omniscient god. A football game (the real, exciting, US version) is played. The players have free will.

Now a time traveler comes from the future to a time before the game. He has a recording of the football game.

Have the players lost their free will?

Has anyone else lost their free will?

What if the time traveler hasn't even watched the recording - have they lost free will?
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20-11-2013, 09:16 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 09:10 AM)alpha male Wrote:  The time-travel scenarios are interesting.

Time travel is totally ridiculous. Big Grin

Besides, the mafia would get that guy. The players would never know. Angel

But it just leads to so many contradictions, paradoxes, and craziness; my assumption is that, even if such a thing were possible, that act of doing it would create a pocket universe with its own timeline spawned from the break.

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20-11-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Free will and god?
alpha male, football is played with the feet sir! Rugby is the British equivalent of American football but nobody wears armour! So the game you are referring to in England, is known as Rugby for pussies! Tongue

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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20-11-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 09:21 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  alpha male, football is played with the feet sir! Rugby is the British equivalent of American football but nobody wears armour! So the game you are referring to in England, is known as Rugby for pussies! Tongue

Don't even start. Angry


Big Grin

Tongue

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