Free will and god?
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20-11-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: Free will and god?
Sorry, but real football without "armour" is known as instant death, not rugby.
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20-11-2013, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2013 10:40 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Free will and god?
Sorry, alpha male, but your logic is flawed...

"real, exciting, US version" ... is dull by comparison:




Yet this does prove that there is a god.

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20-11-2013, 09:54 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 09:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The flaw with that reasoning is assuming the god perspective. Like, I'm watching The Vampire Diaries? (Again, cause I'm such a girl) So, I know what's gonna happen, but Elena doesn't. Just 'cause god knows everything, it's still all new to me.

What I'm sayin', anyway. Big Grin

I was gonna tease the shit out of you for watching that, but then I remembered watching Gossip Girl with my wife and decided I'd better just STFU. Big Grin

Elena has to follow a script. The show's ending is determined before the show starts.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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20-11-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 09:10 AM)alpha male Wrote:  The time-travel scenarios are interesting.

First assume that natural determinism is false and there is no omniscient god. A football game (the real, exciting, US version) is played. The players have free will.
Now a time traveler comes from the future to a time before the game. He has a recording of the football game.

Have the players lost their free will?
Has anyone else lost their free will?

What if the time traveler hasn't even watched the recording - have they lost free will?

I dig that example! I find a few flaws in it when comparing it to god, though.

1. The time traveler is watching something that has already happened. All the initial 'free-will' decisions were made before the time traveler visited. Before the game (assuming a linear timeline), the outcome was unknown to everyone. Traveling back to watch the game happen is merely watching a replay of the event. But fuck if I understand time travel...

2. God comes before the game, and knows what will happen before the game is played. While the players might think they have free will, their actions have already been determined and outcomes cannot be changed;

3. The time traveler did not create the players, knowing who would win and lose;

4. The time traveler is not going to punish the losers for all of eternity;

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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20-11-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 09:54 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I was gonna tease the shit out of you for watching that...

I am unapologetic. Big Grin

And! Nina's a good actor, so there's likely spontaneity in expression. Tongue

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20-11-2013, 10:33 AM
RE: Free will and god?
I think the only way to make sense of a god that knows everything that will happen is if this god programmed every living thing and natural event to live out the EVENTUALITY of its existence. Meaning free will would exist for humans like it exists for a piece of software. If I know exactly how the software will behave...because I wrote it...does that make it free will? I don't think so.

Bleh it's just a piece of a magical house of cards that isn't worth deeply considering IMO.
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20-11-2013, 10:33 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 09:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 08:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWBtT-Gl4vQ
Ain't no "free will".

A little too soon to say that. We don't know enough about mind to leap to that conclusion based on a few experiments.

You can, of course, choose to believe it. Drinking Beverage

(There are a lot of other experiments, besides Eagleman's).
The moral argument is based on :
1. full knowledge
2. "complete" consent
Those at least have been demonstrated to be false.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist & Levitating Yogi
John 15:16 : "You did not choose me, I chose you, so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last"

Lots of fruits in beligion.
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20-11-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 10:33 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I think the only way to make sense of a god that knows everything that will happen is if this god programmed every living thing and natural event to live out the EVENTUALITY of its existence. Meaning free will would exist for humans like it exists for a piece of software. If I know exactly how the software will behave...because I wrote it...does that make it free will? I don't think so.IMO.
I use this analogy too. That software may not have free will, but neither is it an autonomous being with rights to moral treatment.
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20-11-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Free will and god?
If you can work out how to move an electron or cause a chemical reaction by willing it, contrary to the influencing forces of gravity, electromagnetic, strong or weak nuclear forces, then maybe we have free will.

But then you need to explain why you can only "will" the electrons and chemical reactions within your own brain? Why not excerpt mind control on others?

If you think someone else's brain is too complex to control, maybe you can will a flow of electrons through a light bulb which is turned off, get it to glow.

Maybe you can will a bolt of lightening from the sky to hit your enemy?

Oh, am I being ridiculous?
Free will is ridiculous!
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20-11-2013, 11:52 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 10:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 09:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  A little too soon to say that. We don't know enough about mind to leap to that conclusion based on a few experiments.

You can, of course, choose to believe it. Drinking Beverage

(There are a lot of other experiments, besides Eagleman's).
The moral argument is based on :
1. full knowledge
2. "complete" consent
Those at least have been demonstrated to be false.

It's still early days.
And no one has agreed what free will is. We appear to be able to make choices.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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