Free will and god?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-11-2013, 03:48 AM
RE: Free will and god?
Thanks for all the replies. Some have asked for some clarifications of my question so here they are.
First I didn't say the deity was omnipotent. This was deliberate as I wanted to avoid the logical contradiction of omnipotence itself. The god I refer to in my question is not any specific entity (so quoting holy texts is pointless). The ONLY characteristics I am assuming it has are omniscience and enough power to have created the universe.
Second, as to the definition of free will, I suppose it's a bad question. It should be 'is everything you do at that point the responsibility of the deity' instead.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 03:59 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(20-11-2013 10:40 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 10:33 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I think the only way to make sense of a god that knows everything that will happen is if this god programmed every living thing and natural event to live out the EVENTUALITY of its existence. Meaning free will would exist for humans like it exists for a piece of software. If I know exactly how the software will behave...because I wrote it...does that make it free will? I don't think so.IMO.
I use this analogy too. That software may not have free will, but neither is it an autonomous being with rights to moral treatment.
This brought a thought on. Does the above analogy mean that (currently impossible) AI complex enough to be human-like would have no moral rights? Or does it only work if the program is one for which we would know the exact outcome (so no random number generators for instance and likely very little external simuli)?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 07:37 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(22-11-2013 03:59 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  This brought a thought on. Does the above analogy mean that (currently impossible) AI complex enough to be human-like would have no moral rights? Or does it only work if the program is one for which we would know the exact outcome (so no random number generators for instance and likely very little external simuli)?
For my part it's designed only for a program for which the exact outcome is known. Considering true AI raises other issues.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(22-11-2013 03:18 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 02:36 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Unless you have a belief in supernatural powers then you must recognise that all events are governed by the forces of nature.

That is trivially true.
Not for some people, some people assume there is a supernatural soul exerting supernatural causes on the brain, thus controlling the person's actions.
Those people believe the soul is good or bad and can thus choose to make actions that are good or bad.



(22-11-2013 03:18 AM)Chippy Wrote:  You are presenting a false dichotomy between particle physics and supernaturalism. You are also exhibiting what Dennett has termed greedy reductionism. Organisms have properties that sub-atomic particles lack. You will not arrive at a description of evolution by natural selection by studying physics. The information that organisms carry exists only at the molecular biological level not at the level of particle physics or physical chemistry. Systems emerge from the particular assembly and configuration of their constitutive parts but they can't be reduced to those parts.
It seems to me that you subscribe to strong emergence. I subscribe to weak emergence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#S..._emergence

There is not one bit of evidence in support of strong emergence, it is special pleading, stating that because the brain is so complex that it then takes on mystical properties and can thus avoid the constraints of physical forces and can willfully choose the path of an electron despite the natural forces acting upon that electron.

But again, my claim.
If you can choose the path of an electron, despite the natural forces, why is it that you can only control the electrons inside your own brain? Why can you not control the electrons in someone else's brain or something as simple as a light bulb?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 09:06 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(22-11-2013 12:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 03:18 AM)Chippy Wrote:  That is trivially true.
Not for some people, some people assume there is a supernatural soul exerting supernatural causes on the brain, thus controlling the person's actions.
Those people believe the soul is good or bad and can thus choose to make actions that are good or bad.



(22-11-2013 03:18 AM)Chippy Wrote:  You are presenting a false dichotomy between particle physics and supernaturalism. You are also exhibiting what Dennett has termed greedy reductionism. Organisms have properties that sub-atomic particles lack. You will not arrive at a description of evolution by natural selection by studying physics. The information that organisms carry exists only at the molecular biological level not at the level of particle physics or physical chemistry. Systems emerge from the particular assembly and configuration of their constitutive parts but they can't be reduced to those parts.
It seems to me that you subscribe to strong emergence. I subscribe to weak emergence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#S..._emergence

There is not one bit of evidence in support of strong emergence, it is special pleading, stating that because the brain is so complex that it then takes on mystical properties and can thus avoid the constraints of physical forces and can willfully choose the path of an electron despite the natural forces acting upon that electron.

But again, my claim.
If you can choose the path of an electron, despite the natural forces, why is it that you can only control the electrons inside your own brain? Why can you not control the electrons in someone else's brain or something as simple as a light bulb?

I thought of responding to you but I have decided against it. You and your "claim" are idiotic.

You are ignorant and unintelligent and you debase every thread you participate in. Anyone can refer to my dialogue with you on moral theory and more recently your attempted defense of "orthomolecular psychiatry" to see that you have no idea about what you post about. I'm not going to demean myself by indulging some uneducated American hick. Whatever informative possibilities this thread held are thoroughly extinguished by your usual cretinous posts and the promise of more of the same.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 09:19 PM
RE: Free will and god?
(22-11-2013 09:06 PM)Chippy Wrote:  I thought of responding to you but I have decided against it. You and your "claim" are idiotic.

You are ignorant and unintelligent and you debase every thread you participate in. Anyone can refer to my dialogue with you on moral theory and more recently your attempted defense of "orthomolecular psychiatry" to see that you have no idea about what you post about. I'm not going to demean myself by indulging some uneducated American hick. Whatever informative possibilities this thread held are thoroughly extinguished by your usual cretinous posts and the promise of more of the same.

Lolz. Big Grin

[Image: 10339580_583235681775606_5139032440228868471_n.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 09:40 PM
RE: Free will and god?
No free will.
No god


[Image: mrhanky.jpg]

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2013, 12:25 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(22-11-2013 09:06 PM)Chippy Wrote:  I'm not going to demean myself by indulging some uneducated American hick.
I've never been to America, but I guess you don't need a little thing like facts to get in the way of your pleasant personality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2013, 12:28 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(22-11-2013 09:06 PM)Chippy Wrote:  and more recently your attempted defense of "orthomolecular psychiatry"
Which also shows your poor ability at comprehension, as I never defended "orthomolecular psychiatry".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2013, 01:00 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 12:25 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 09:06 PM)Chippy Wrote:  I'm not going to demean myself by indulging some uneducated American hick.
I've never been to America, but I guess you don't need a little thing like facts to get in the way of your pleasant personality.

Who gives a fuck where you are from, you are a dickhead nevertheless. You are stupid and you are ignorant so there is no point citing scientific papers to you or even presenting anything but the most rudimentary of arguments to you. You are a waste of time and a waste of hard-disk space. You also have the effect of degrading threads with your moronic ideas and misunderstandings of science, scientific method, scientific evidence and scientific culture. When any discussion could move forward you push it back with the weight of your ignorance into an exercise of trying to educate you. Your attempts at argumentation are equally brain-damaged. You are a moron that thinks he is intelligent and knowledgeable so trying to educate you is futile. So in summation--fuck off. I'm not going to waste my time rebutting your jejune arguments or trying to compensate for your absent or failed education. Go read a book about a topic you believe you know something about. Fucking useless shit-for-brains idiot.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: