Free will and god?
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23-11-2013, 01:01 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 12:28 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Which also shows your poor ability at comprehension, as I never defended "orthomolecular psychiatry".

Correct. You didn't defend anything because your posts in that thread are imbecilic.
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23-11-2013, 01:15 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 01:01 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(23-11-2013 12:28 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Which also shows your poor ability at comprehension, as I never defended "orthomolecular psychiatry".

Correct. You didn't defend anything because your posts in that thread are imbecilic.
Well actually, I didn't defend anything because I didn't make any claims in that thread. You on the other hand attacked Mark for making a claim and insisted he back that up with (your specified level of) evidence. Whereas you also made a claim but refused to back up your own claim.
I was merely an observer in that debate.
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23-11-2013, 01:17 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 01:00 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Who gives a fuck where you are from, you are a dickhead nevertheless. You are stupid and you are ignorant so there is no point citing scientific papers to you or even presenting anything but the most rudimentary of arguments to you. You are a waste of time and a waste of hard-disk space. You also have the effect of degrading threads with your moronic ideas and misunderstandings of science, scientific method, scientific evidence and scientific culture. When any discussion could move forward you push it back with the weight of your ignorance into an exercise of trying to educate you. Your attempts at argumentation are equally brain-damaged. You are a moron that thinks he is intelligent and knowledgeable so trying to educate you is futile. So in summation--fuck off. I'm not going to waste my time rebutting your jejune arguments or trying to compensate for your absent or failed education. Go read a book about a topic you believe you know something about. Fucking useless shit-for-brains idiot.
Do you have anger management issues?
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23-11-2013, 01:53 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 01:17 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Do you have anger management issues?

I have dickhead management issues.
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23-11-2013, 01:59 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 01:53 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(23-11-2013 01:17 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Do you have anger management issues?

I have dickhead management issues.
I hope you beat your issue before it explodes in your face.
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23-11-2013, 02:06 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 01:15 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Whereas you also made a claim but refused to back up your own claim.

No, I didn't. The problem there was that you are too stupid to understand the evidence I presented. That isn't my problem and there is nothing I can do about that.

Quote:I was merely an observer in that debate.

No you were an active participant. Fulton was Don Quixote and you were Sancho following him on your mule except that you too saw giants.





You are an ignorant shithead.
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23-11-2013, 02:41 AM
RE: Free will and god?
*cough* *cough*, Ahem, 'clears throat to politely get attention', Big Grin

Chippy you mentioned in a reply to myself earlier in the thread that we need to settle on a definition of free will before we could progress with the discussion. I didn't know if you meant us on the forum, agreeing on one for the purposes of moving the conversation forward, or 'we' in a broader sense as in the grandeur and splendour that is mankind Smile . Looking at it mate, I'm now fairly sure you meant the broader sense, so could you point me in the right direction for a layman's overview of explanations for the more commonly accepted arguments please?

So I've had a look around online in an attempt to educate myself and found a few things to hopefully point me in the right direction.

Could anyone give me a clearer explanation of physical determinism?
.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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23-11-2013, 06:10 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 02:41 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  so could you point me in the right direction for a layman's overview of explanations for the more commonly accepted arguments please?

Dennett's books on the topic are perhaps the most accessible:

Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting
Freedom Evolves

I advise you ignore all of the posts of the people that have stated that free will doesn't exist where they have not defined what they mean by free will (which in this case is all of them). Those posts are semantically hollow--they mean nothing. Bollocks-talk is customary on this forum and erudition is routinely denigrated. The idea that someone may have read books and academic papers on a topic is an alien notion to many here. "I'm an ignorant fuckhead so you too must be an ignorant fuckhead" is the operative logic of non-contributors such as FSM_scot, Stark Raving, Stevil etc. Notice that no one besides Girly Man responded to your request for introductory philosophical material in your thread. I haven't responded because I wanted to see what the outcome will be and it was as I have expected. So apparently you don't need even an introductory level education in philosophy to pronounce that there is no such thing as free will. This is the taxi-driver phenomenon: human progress is hindered by the fact that everyone that knows how to fix the world is driving a taxi.

One of the major problems in the free will vs. determinism debate is defining what free will actually consists in. Also, the most common position on the matter amongst philosophers--that also happens to coincide with laypersons intuitions (when the key terms are soundly defined)--is that determinism is compatible with free will. This view is termed compatibilism and is defended by Dennett in the above books.

Another exciting development in this field are the so-called two-stage models of free will. The most interesting of these are based in neuroscientific results. Of note is Martin Heisenberg's short essay in Nature Is free will an illusion? (attached because it is behind a paywall). It is a well-established result that neurons display non-deterministic behaviour, e.g. random opening and closing of ion channels and random discharges. Heisenberg argues that this randomness can form the basis of originary behaviour. Heisenberg also cites his studies of Drosophila as supportive of his thesis. The two-stages refers to the non-deterministic origination of thoughts followed by a deterministic selection from the perceived options. This idea is analogous to evolution by natural selection: random variation followed by deterministic environmental selection. This neurological flexibility would have evolved for the same reasons that the generative mechanism of evolution by natural selection evolved and has been preserved--because it facilitates adaptation to a changing environment. Heisenberg's model is also a type of compatibilism.

Quote:Could anyone give me a clearer explanation of physical determinism?

Physical determinism is the idea that the laws of physics--i.e. the behaviour of the physical universe--are/is entirely deterministic. That was the prevailing view of the universe prior to quantum mechanics. The prevailing analogy was of clockwork, that if you knew all the relevant laws and the initial conditions you could--at least in theory--predict all subsequent events. There is no such thing as randomness--i.e. non-determinism--in a clockwork universe. According to Laplace, randomness was only apparent and was in actuality a product of human ignorance.

According to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics--the most common and "standard" interpretation--physical determinism is false and randomness is an objective feature of the physical universe.


Attached File(s)
.pdf  Heisenberg, Martin 2009 Is Free Will an Illusion Nature Volume 459 issue 7244 [doi 10.1038%2F459164a].pdf (Size: 1.71 MB / Downloads: 28)
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23-11-2013, 06:49 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(21-11-2013 10:09 PM)Chippy Wrote:  No it doesn't. The omniscient and omnipotent God could be malevolent.
Well no one claims that God is malevolent,although it makes a hell of a lot sense to have malevolent God but it still doesn't solve the paradox of being omniscient and omnipotent.
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23-11-2013, 06:57 AM
RE: Free will and god?
(23-11-2013 06:10 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Notice that no one besides Girly Man responded to your request for introductory philosophical material in your thread.

Firstly, the question was asked and answered in less than an hour.
Secondly, a prophet is a naïve philosopher.
Thirdly, Tongue
4. Good stuff. Thumbsup

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