Free will defense is full of shit
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27-02-2014, 08:31 AM
Free will defense is full of shit
If god can't violate free will of rapists and murderers why can we do it?
Shouldn't we release all of em from prisons and let em run amok in order not to infringe on their free will?
If it is our obligation to prevent crimes it should be gods obligation as well.

Apparently it is very hard for John Lennox and WLC to recognize this.
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27-02-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
This is usually the part where they put a very arbitrary gap between the morality God imposes on us and the morality God is "bound" to. None of it is explained in anything but the vaguest terms because nonfalsifiability.
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27-02-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
(27-02-2014 08:35 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is usually the part where they put a very arbitrary gap between the morality God imposes on us and the morality God is "bound" to. None of it is explained in anything but the vaguest terms because nonfalsifiability.

Who cares about nonfalsifiability?
My point is that if X is immoral it is so for everybody. If not then morality doesn't exist. It's just might makes right scenario.
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27-02-2014, 09:22 AM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
(27-02-2014 09:17 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(27-02-2014 08:35 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is usually the part where they put a very arbitrary gap between the morality God imposes on us and the morality God is "bound" to. None of it is explained in anything but the vaguest terms because nonfalsifiability.

Who cares about nonfalsifiability?
My point is that if X is immoral it is so for everybody. If not then morality doesn't exist. It's just might makes right scenario.

That is true, and a lot of apologists will agree with you on that (although they probably won't like the "might makes right" label due to connotations). I've talked with people about children dying in the flood or the 10th plague, and at some point, they all inevitably say that God has no moral imperative not to kill us, because [reasons that are almost always special pleading]. Or they'll say that the whole no-killing rule is for us and not him.

And that's it. They believe that God gets a free pass on morality because [special pleading], so any attempt you make to compare God's actions to our actions will be immediately dismissed, and they'll go about their day feeling all good and stuff.

Yay for cognitive dissonance and special pleading.!
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27-02-2014, 09:25 AM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
(27-02-2014 09:22 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(27-02-2014 09:17 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Who cares about nonfalsifiability?
My point is that if X is immoral it is so for everybody. If not then morality doesn't exist. It's just might makes right scenario.

That is true, and a lot of apologists will agree with you on that (although they probably won't like the "might makes right" label due to connotations). I've talked with people about children dying in the flood or the 10th plague, and at some point, they all inevitably say that God has no moral imperative not to kill us, because [reasons that are almost always special pleading]. Or they'll say that the whole no-killing rule is for us and not him.

And that's it. They believe that God gets a free pass on morality because [special pleading], so any attempt you make to compare God's actions to our actions will be immediately dismissed, and they'll go about their day feeling all good and stuff.

Yay for cognitive dissonance and special pleading.!
Then they can't say god is good either because goodness is measured by the morality standard.
They have no way of distinguishing between good and evil god.
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27-02-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
(27-02-2014 09:25 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Then they can't say god is good either because goodness is measured by the morality standard.
They have no way of distinguishing between good and evil god.

This is the part where they get into semantic games involving "omnibenevolence", "all good", "all merciful", and "justice". It's also about the time I stop talking into them.

At the end of the day, they will give god a particular label [wargarble] that sounds like it means "good" or "merciful" or something else based on how everyone else speaks the language. Then, you will realize that "good" or "merciful" or [wargarble] implicitly includes willfully killing children who committed no sin or allowing kids to die of terrible diseases.

So, yeah. Their god is omni-[wargarble] or whatever, which sounds nice, but he's still a fucking monster. They just call him good. I stopped having these conversations with believers a while ago because they get so frustrating. They always come off like someone in an abusive relationship telling me that I don't understand him like they do, and that he really does love us and we deserve to be treated like that. Ugh.
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27-02-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
Sounds like they got some selfpwnage going on.
Well if somebody still thinks 2+2=5 even if I demonstrate it in all possible ways I can't help them at that point.
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27-02-2014, 02:39 PM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
The thing with morality is its not absolute... What's considered fairly immoral today, was extremely immoral in the past.

For example... petty thievery. Today it might get you a fine and a few months in the clink, but a few hundred years ago the penalty would have probably been having your right hand cut off, and "thief" branded on your arse.

But, in contrast... Rape, child abuse and domestic violence were once ignored or dealt with very leniently. Whereas today they are very serious crimes.

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27-02-2014, 03:29 PM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
(27-02-2014 09:38 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Sounds like they got some selfpwnage going on.
Well if somebody still thinks 2+2=5 even if I demonstrate it in all possible ways I can't help them at that point.

2+2 does equal 5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

Tongue

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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03-03-2014, 05:15 AM
RE: Free will defense is full of shit
The Free-Will defense also collapses because it cannot adequately explain away the massive amount of suffering we see in the animal kingdom, even by the standards used by Christian apologists to circumnavigate their god's culpability.

If you have a chance, grab a copy of The Christian Delusion, and read Chapter 9: The Darwinian Problem of Evil by John W. Loftus.

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