Free will or not?
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12-02-2015, 02:28 AM
Free will or not?
I was asking a xtian friend of mine whether he think free will crashes with the fact that god already knows our fate/destiny and are all knowing.

He responded "No, we have free will."
"We have free will to choose to do this or that in this moment. If we chose to do something bad now, then God would know that, if we chose to do something good, then God would would have prophetized that you would do something good now."

I see his point, and I can't really disagree...
Thinking about this way, I can't see how it being all-knowing crashes with free will.

Is there something wrong about this statement?
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12-02-2015, 02:35 AM
RE: Free will or not?
If the being is all-knowing and omnipotent, in that he created everything knowing the way he created it.. where is the wiggle room for choice?

If god knows all, he doesn't just KNOW what you did after you did, he created the scenarios of you doing such things the moment he created everything.

If he created the scenario of the world knowing everything that would happen and chose all those choices of what he was making happen, where is the possibility of a persons interaction? Free-Will isn't really valid in the 3-omni god scenario.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-02-2015, 02:54 AM
RE: Free will or not?
A better question would be that if he knows all, then why tempt Adam and Eve with the tree of knowledge? Did he want to condemn all of humanity?

Atir aissom atir imon
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12-02-2015, 03:20 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 02:35 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If the being is all-knowing and omnipotent, in that he created everything knowing the way he created it.. where is the wiggle room for choice?

If god knows all, he doesn't just KNOW what you did after you did, he created the scenarios of you doing such things the moment he created everything.

If he created the scenario of the world knowing everything that would happen and chose all those choices of what he was making happen, where is the possibility of a persons interaction? Free-Will isn't really valid in the 3-omni god scenario.


Thanks for the answer, but you formulate this like God chose for us, rather than reading into the future what we were going to chose between of the choices/scenarios he gave us.

Or did I misunderstand?
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12-02-2015, 04:15 AM
RE: Free will or not?
*True* free will is the ability to surprise yahweh with a choice it didn't know you were going to make.

If it *knows* you are going to select option 'A' and out of the blue you choose 'B'.

That, IMHO, is true free will.
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12-02-2015, 05:38 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 04:15 AM)H4ym4n Wrote:  *True* free will is the ability to surprise yahweh with a choice it didn't know you were going to make.

If it *knows* you are going to select option 'A' and out of the blue you choose 'B'.

That, IMHO, is true free will.


I'm pretty sure I see your point, but God is still not deciding what I choose, he's just looking through his magical crystal ball and sees what I chose to do in the future.

To me, not-true free will would be if God steered me in one direction and I couldn't do otherwise.

Maybe I'm just too slow to 'get it', but I still don't see how free will and god's foresight defeats each other.

If your sister knew what your future looks like, would that make you lose your free will?

Is there something I'm missing?
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12-02-2015, 06:16 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 05:38 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 04:15 AM)H4ym4n Wrote:  *True* free will is the ability to surprise yahweh with a choice it didn't know you were going to make.

If it *knows* you are going to select option 'A' and out of the blue you choose 'B'.

That, IMHO, is true free will.


I'm pretty sure I see your point, but God is still not deciding what I choose, he's just looking through his magical crystal ball and sees what I chose to do in the future.

To me, not-true free will would be if God steered me in one direction and I couldn't do otherwise.

Maybe I'm just too slow to 'get it', but I still don't see how free will and god's foresight defeats each other.

If your sister knew what your future looks like, would that make you lose your free will?

Is there something I'm missing?

At the point when yahweh said let there be light, did it *know* you and I will be typing with one another today?

Yes or no?


Does yahweh have a master plan for everything?

Yes or no?


Does an omniscient being change its mind?

Yes or no?


Did either one of us have a choice in the matter?

Yes or no?
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12-02-2015, 06:27 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 05:38 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  I'm pretty sure I see your point, but God is still not deciding what I choose, he's just looking through his magical crystal ball and sees what I chose to do in the future.

To me, not-true free will would be if God steered me in one direction and I couldn't do otherwise.

Maybe I'm just too slow to 'get it', but I still don't see how free will and god's foresight defeats each other.
It's not JUST that he's omniscient, it's that he's also omnipotent AND made you/the universe. God made you in a certain way, A, and he KNEW that making you that way would lead you to do X, however he would ALSO know that had he made you in a different way, B, you'd have done Y instead. God chose for you to do X instead of Y by the very act of creating you in form A instead of B. You're a robot dancing to god's programing, and god doesn't use random numbers.


(12-02-2015 05:38 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  If your sister knew what your future looks like, would that make you lose your free will?

Is there something I'm missing?

Yes. A person's sister didn't make the person, didn't have the choice about how to, didn't have the power to select any desired outcome. God, supposedly, did.
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12-02-2015, 06:57 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 05:38 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  To me, not-true free will would be if God steered me in one direction and I couldn't do otherwise.

Did yahweh give you undeniable proof it exists?

Or are you believing in it just in case?


If it gave you undeniable proof of its existence then why is it choosing to harden my heart? Something documented that it has done on numerous occasions in the past?






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12-02-2015, 06:58 AM
RE: Free will or not?
How do you know you're NOT living in the matrix??..



heh

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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