Free will or not?
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12-02-2015, 07:15 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 02:28 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  He responded "No, we have free will."
"We have free will to choose to do this or that in this moment. If we chose to do something bad now, then God would know that, if we chose to do something good, then God would would have prophetized that you would do something good now."

I see his point, and I can't really disagree...
Thinking about this way, I can't see how it being all-knowing crashes with free will.

You're looking at half the picture. It's not whether or not we can make free decisions if someone else knows the result ahead of time; it's whether or not we can make free decisions if someone else knows the result ahead of time and that person sets the criteria for judging our actions.

Basically, the idea is that at the time God set the bar for what would get people into heaven or hell, he already knew every action everyone was going to take. So, while our actions are free from our own frame of reference, the game is hopelessly rigged.

This is actually a lot of where the Calvinist notion of predetermined elect and reprobate come from. I'll totally give them points for recognizing the inherent folly of free will when measured against an omniscient agent. I'm pretty sure this is almost KC's exact stance on the matter.
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12-02-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 03:20 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 02:35 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If the being is all-knowing and omnipotent, in that he created everything knowing the way he created it.. where is the wiggle room for choice?

If god knows all, he doesn't just KNOW what you did after you did, he created the scenarios of you doing such things the moment he created everything.

If he created the scenario of the world knowing everything that would happen and chose all those choices of what he was making happen, where is the possibility of a persons interaction? Free-Will isn't really valid in the 3-omni god scenario.


Thanks for the answer, but you formulate this like God chose for us, rather than reading into the future what we were going to chose between of the choices/scenarios he gave us.

Or did I misunderstand?

That is the case, and that has to be the case if it is a purposed Omniscient, omnipotent, & omnipresent creator. It's already described better by oddgamer. That type of god is never in just a looking into the future moment because he creates what is the future when he creates everything.

If a person wants to describe god like Yahweh in the Bible, who clearly is not classically omni-descriptors, then that god gives free will.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-02-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Free will or not?
Free will

Do you have a conscious self control of the actions you make ? If you can consciously move, then you are freely willing that movement.

Lets say your hand often shakes uncontrollably. With effort you can control your hand well enough to stop the shaking so that you can write your name.

There is a moment in that process in which you have no control over the actions of your hand to you having some control. That self control is free will.

I would love to write more, but work calls

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-02-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: Free will or not?
Michael J Fox will be please to hear about curing of his shaking hands.
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12-02-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 06:27 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 05:38 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  I'm pretty sure I see your point, but God is still not deciding what I choose, he's just looking through his magical crystal ball and sees what I chose to do in the future.

To me, not-true free will would be if God steered me in one direction and I couldn't do otherwise.

Maybe I'm just too slow to 'get it', but I still don't see how free will and god's foresight defeats each other.
It's not JUST that he's omniscient, it's that he's also omnipotent AND made you/the universe. God made you in a certain way, A, and he KNEW that making you that way would lead you to do X, however he would ALSO know that had he made you in a different way, B, you'd have done Y instead. God chose for you to do X instead of Y by the very act of creating you in form A instead of B. You're a robot dancing to god's programing, and god doesn't use random numbers.


(12-02-2015 05:38 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  If your sister knew what your future looks like, would that make you lose your free will?

Is there something I'm missing?

Yes. A person's sister didn't make the person, didn't have the choice about how to, didn't have the power to select any desired outcome. God, supposedly, did.

Many good replies now, including this one which I felt did the job for me.

Thanks everyone!
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12-02-2015, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 09:22 AM by kim.)
RE: Free will or not?
Free will is more illusion than anything. Humans are generally under the thumb of DNA and a multitude of OCD behaviors that continually fire and misfire, constantly redirecting evolution.

Maybe the notion of "free will" becomes confused with "freedom of choice"? Don't really know. Drinking Beverage

-- A question: did anyone choose to not be a believer or did it just "happen"?

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12-02-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 07:15 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 02:28 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  He responded "No, we have free will."
"We have free will to choose to do this or that in this moment. If we chose to do something bad now, then God would know that, if we chose to do something good, then God would would have prophetized that you would do something good now."

I see his point, and I can't really disagree...
Thinking about this way, I can't see how it being all-knowing crashes with free will.

You're looking at half the picture. It's not whether or not we can make free decisions if someone else knows the result ahead of time; it's whether or not we can make free decisions if someone else knows the result ahead of time and that person sets the criteria for judging our actions.

Basically, the idea is that at the time God set the bar for what would get people into heaven or hell, he already knew every action everyone was going to take. So, while our actions are free from our own frame of reference, the game is hopelessly rigged.

This is actually a lot of where the Calvinist notion of predetermined elect and reprobate come from. I'll totally give them points for recognizing the inherent folly of free will when measured against an omniscient agent. I'm pretty sure this is almost KC's exact stance on the matter.

Of course at some point I have to ask, why does god give a flying f**** about one person and one species of animal on an infinitesimal mote of dust, in a nondescript galaxy out of 100's of billions of other galaxies? The very idea of a god so concerned by absurd things like whether we work on a certain day of the week or where we put our appendages for reproduction or whether we snip a little bit of that appendage off is so absurd.

A god of greatness does not concern itself with such things.

I just have this visual of this omni-whatever being of immense power looking down on the planet and thinking-"Those little shits! They're not snipping their penises properly! I kill you!!!!"

[Image: achmed-i-kill-you.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-02-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: Free will or not?
Oh great - you've drawn Mohammed. Now you're gonna bring down the wrath of ISL on the forum! Thanks a gob.

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A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-02-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Free will or not?
1. If god is all knowing, he knows exactly what his actions will bring about.

2. God designed/created the universe in a specific way. If he is all powerful and all knowing, we can only assume he built it Exactly as he wanted it.

3. Since god would know all of your actions even before he created the universe, he must have considered those actions when designing the universe.

4. Since all of your actions were known and considered before the construction of the universe, and we can assume god built the universe exactly as he wanted, with the outcomes that he expected, everything you do must be part of the design, and not a product of free will.

5. If he had wanted the universe any other way, he would have made it differently.
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12-02-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Free will or not?
Well then, I see we're all in agreement: being atheist is just part of god's plan.

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A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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