Free will or not?
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12-02-2015, 10:04 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 02:28 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  I was asking a xtian friend of mine whether he think free will crashes with the fact that god already knows our fate/destiny and are all knowing.

He responded "No, we have free will."
"We have free will to choose to do this or that in this moment. If we chose to do something bad now, then God would know that, if we chose to do something good, then God would would have prophetized that you would do something good now."

I see his point, and I can't really disagree...
Thinking about this way, I can't see how it being all-knowing crashes with free will.

Is there something wrong about this statement?

"Free will," a somewhat complicated question.

I will try to give you a point of view that may be a bit extensive, but it needs to be extensive in order to demonstrate the position.

From strictly a scientific point of view, there are two ways to look at this.

First Cause - Determinism

If we use the first cause scenario, we can determine that free will- at least for the most part- does not exist. Think of it as a game of pool, where you hit the cue ball, it breaks the racked balls, and then they all go in different directions. All the balls will go exactly where they are supposed to go depending on how the cue ball (first cause) was hit. None of the balls have any choice in the matter; they all must go exactly where they are supposed to go.

Their direction and future location has been predetermined.

The way you should look at the first cause scenario is by understanding the Big Bang theory. All matter, space, energy etc were at one time occupying a single point which in an instant expanded outwards to create the known universe. All matter, space, energy etc went in the direction they were supposed to go due to the first cause of the Big Bang.

Therefore due to the First Case, an intricate determinism was invoked in which all things were predetermined to happen with no choice/free will being involved in any way.

Using this First Cause/Determinism model, we could say that no one is responsible for any action they do, which includes any crimes anyone commits due to not having any control over ourselves.

And now for the other point of view ...


No Cause - Randomness

Part of this position will include my own thoughts which are needed to demonstrate the point.

What if the universe is infinite and eternal? If the universe is indeed infinite and eternal, then there could be no First Cause/Determinism. Despite the fact that it appears that some kind of a Big Bang occurred, what we cannot determine is whether or not the Big Bang created the universe as a whole, or if it happened within an already existent universe.

In this scenario, we could look at the Big bang as being a localized singularity, which expanded into what we now know as the observable universe. What this means is that it was not the only Big Bang to occur, but rather was merely one in an endless series of Big Bangs that occur within an infinite and eternal universe. For example, 10 trillion light years away, another Big Bang could be happening at this very moment in a different part of the infinite and eternal universe.

Therefore, with no First Cause/Determinism, we have No Cause - Randomness in which nothing has been predetermined, and therefore the ability to choose aka "Free Will" is factual. Everything happens within a chaotic randomness, and from there we attempt to create order out of chaos. We can do this because we have Free Will in this scenario.

I am personally from the No Cause - Randomness school of thought because it makes no logical sense to me that there could possibly ever be nothing in existence. Even the Big Bang would need to originate from some prior existence, otherwise it could have no existence.

My position is gaining steam in the scientific community, and just a couple days ago a new theory was published that questions the Big bang as being the First Cause.

Here is a link to that article:


No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning.

I hope this helps you in some small way.

Shy

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-02-2015, 10:13 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 09:58 AM)kim Wrote:  Well then, I see we're all in agreement: being atheist is just part of god's plan.

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12-02-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 03:20 AM)Typho2k Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 02:35 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If the being is all-knowing and omnipotent, in that he created everything knowing the way he created it.. where is the wiggle room for choice?

If god knows all, he doesn't just KNOW what you did after you did, he created the scenarios of you doing such things the moment he created everything.

If he created the scenario of the world knowing everything that would happen and chose all those choices of what he was making happen, where is the possibility of a persons interaction? Free-Will isn't really valid in the 3-omni god scenario.


Thanks for the answer, but you formulate this like God chose for us, rather than reading into the future what we were going to chose between of the choices/scenarios he gave us.

Or did I misunderstand?

Say you set up an experiment so that it can have only one possible outcome.
You run it, and the outcome is of course the only one possible, as you previously predicted.
Would you consider that a prophecy?
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12-02-2015, 11:31 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 09:42 AM)kim Wrote:  Oh great - you've drawn Mohammed. Now you're gonna bring down the wrath of ISL on the forum! Thanks a gob.

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That isn't Mohammed, it's Achmed the dead terrorist.




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12-02-2015, 11:31 AM
RE: Free will or not?
I don't believe in free will, personally I'm convinced it's a myth.

god or the lack thereof, hasn't a thing to do with it.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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12-02-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Free will or not?
Free will depends on your marital status.
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12-02-2015, 11:49 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 11:31 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't believe in free will, personally I'm convinced it's a myth.

god or the lack thereof, hasn't a thing to do with it.

If we don't have free will, then all convicts such as murderers, child molesters, etc are not guilty because they had no control over their actions.

And I have a big problem with that.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-02-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 11:31 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That isn't Mohammed, it's Achmed the dead terrorist.

Oh... so... you're saying there's a difference. Dodgy

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12-02-2015, 11:55 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2015 12:41 PM by H4ym4n.)
RE: Free will or not?
(12-02-2015 11:49 AM)Free Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 11:31 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't believe in free will, personally I'm convinced it's a myth.

god or the lack thereof, hasn't a thing to do with it.

If we don't have free will, then all convicts such as murderers, child molesters, etc are not guilty because they had no control over their actions.

And I have a big problem with that.




God had to sign off on allowing murders, child molesting and rapist to exist.

It's god, it could have designed it out of its creation.
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12-02-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: Free will or not?
No matter how you slice it, free will cannot coexist with an O3 God. Christians who believe in free will are lying to themselves and have more than likely never studied theology in depth.

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