Free will or not?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-02-2015, 06:01 PM
RE: Free will or not?
(13-02-2015 04:37 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 04:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  It is how you react to the current info that is predetermined. Whether you are flexible enough to change your mind is predetermined.

I disagree. I can agree that the traits we acquired through life experience influence the choices we make with the current info, but they do not force us to make a choice beyond our control.

The average human is always flexible enough to change his/her mind, but any character traits we acquired through life experience can only influence- not force- the decisions we make with real-time information.

For example, a person who says, "Okay because of this new information, I will do as you suggest, but I do so against my better judgement" is making a decision against his life experience and acquired traits.

He is making a decision based solely upon new information, and suppressing his acquired traits to do so.

Respectfully I disagree. You are actually making the case for a lack of free will.

Ability to adapt is an evolutionary trait. It isn't free will. We are also programmed by our social structures and evolution to accept often the words or ideas of those who we think or sense might know more than we do. Even if it goes against what we think.

All of our actions or responses are determined because we're born this way. Free will isn't needed.

This is also why I find the nature verses nurture argument a false dichotomy, it's not either or but a combination of both that directs our responses or determines our actions. But it's still not free will.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
13-02-2015, 06:15 PM
RE: Free will or not?
(13-02-2015 06:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 04:37 PM)Free Wrote:  I disagree. I can agree that the traits we acquired through life experience influence the choices we make with the current info, but they do not force us to make a choice beyond our control.

The average human is always flexible enough to change his/her mind, but any character traits we acquired through life experience can only influence- not force- the decisions we make with real-time information.

For example, a person who says, "Okay because of this new information, I will do as you suggest, but I do so against my better judgement" is making a decision against his life experience and acquired traits.

He is making a decision based solely upon new information, and suppressing his acquired traits to do so.

Respectfully I disagree. You are actually making the case for a lack of free will.

Ability to adapt is an evolutionary trait. It isn't free will. We are also programmed by our social structures and evolution to accept often the words or ideas of those who we think or sense might know more than we do. Even if it goes against what we think.

All of our actions or responses are determined because we're born this way. Free will isn't needed.

This is also why I find the nature verses nurture argument a false dichotomy, it's not either or but a combination of both that directs our responses or determines our actions. But it's still not free will.

Self preservation compels us to make choices that serve our own best interests. However, to eliminate our pain, we will make a decision to sacrifice self preservation in favor of death.

We have the will to override our most basic instinct to survive and preserve ourselves.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Free will or not?
(13-02-2015 06:15 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 06:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Respectfully I disagree. You are actually making the case for a lack of free will.

Ability to adapt is an evolutionary trait. It isn't free will. We are also programmed by our social structures and evolution to accept often the words or ideas of those who we think or sense might know more than we do. Even if it goes against what we think.

All of our actions or responses are determined because we're born this way. Free will isn't needed.

This is also why I find the nature verses nurture argument a false dichotomy, it's not either or but a combination of both that directs our responses or determines our actions. But it's still not free will.

Self preservation compels us to make choices that serve our own best interests. However, to eliminate our pain, we will make a decision to sacrifice self preservation in favor of death.

We have the will to override our most basic instinct to survive and preserve ourselves.

It's still not free will, giving up your life to save someine else will depend on the value you place on their life.

That's still a determined action. Flight or fight. Some run, some stay to fight and some will be more willing to save others than themselves.

There are always those people who will (albeit maybe selfishly) choose their own life.

This discussion has been really fascinating. Smile

Thanks Free! Heart


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
13-02-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: Free will or not?
(13-02-2015 06:15 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 06:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Respectfully I disagree. You are actually making the case for a lack of free will.

Ability to adapt is an evolutionary trait. It isn't free will. We are also programmed by our social structures and evolution to accept often the words or ideas of those who we think or sense might know more than we do. Even if it goes against what we think.

All of our actions or responses are determined because we're born this way. Free will isn't needed.

This is also why I find the nature verses nurture argument a false dichotomy, it's not either or but a combination of both that directs our responses or determines our actions. But it's still not free will.

Self preservation compels us to make choices that serve our own best interests. However, to eliminate our pain, we will make a decision to sacrifice self preservation in favor of death.

We have the will to override our most basic instinct to survive and preserve ourselves.

I don't know how suicide enters into this. I am predisposed to commit suicide myself, the chances that I will die by my own hand are very high, unless I get run over by a truck or die of a sudden heart attack or something. But, if faced with losing independence because of physical deterioration, I will take the exit. I do not have the instinct of survival as strongly as you do.

This is what you don't get, that we are NOT all the same. Our traits are very unique. I keep pointing at evolution here - we are genetically endowed with the same basic instincts for instance, but not everyone has the individual instincts in the same potency, and some don't have them at all. Life is always looking for a better way, a better product if you will, that is what evolution is. That is why we are mapped differently. The majority of people will be "normal" - they will have fairly consistent amounts of the instincts, body chemicals, physical disease resistance and so forth. These endowments determine how we will go through life, how and when we "choose" things. It's not all about nurture. Nurture and nature are both part of it. Mom pointed this out already.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
14-02-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(13-02-2015 06:29 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 06:15 PM)Free Wrote:  Self preservation compels us to make choices that serve our own best interests. However, to eliminate our pain, we will make a decision to sacrifice self preservation in favor of death.

We have the will to override our most basic instinct to survive and preserve ourselves.

It's still not free will, giving up your life to save someone else will depend on the value you place on their life.

But we make decisions on the spur of the moment in which that decision is directly connected to the current real-time information. Again, I do not deny that our previous life experiences and character traits greatly influence our decision making, but because of current information our previous life experience and character traits cannot be the sum total of what affects the current choices we make.

Even our previously accumulated character traits are dynamic, and because of that they are subject to change with current information. Things that we held as being truths in the past can be updated and corrected with current real-time information.

So since we make decisions and choices based upon current real-time information, and since previous character traits from life experiences also get updated with real-time information, then the current choices we make obviously cannot be solely dependent upon something previous in which our choices are predetermined.

Quote:This discussion has been really fascinating. Smile

Thanks Free! Heart

We are all looking to approximate the truth as closely as possible. Some of you- especially you- are freaking awesome conversationalists. I love to flesh out information from those of you who are obviously solid free thinkers, unbound by restrictions of faith, and who will dare to fearlessly smash down any door to see what lurks behind it.

Thumbsup

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-02-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(13-02-2015 06:35 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 06:15 PM)Free Wrote:  Self preservation compels us to make choices that serve our own best interests. However, to eliminate our pain, we will make a decision to sacrifice self preservation in favor of death.

We have the will to override our most basic instinct to survive and preserve ourselves.

I don't know how suicide enters into this. I am predisposed to commit suicide myself, the chances that I will die by my own hand are very high, unless I get run over by a truck or die of a sudden heart attack or something. But, if faced with losing independence because of physical deterioration, I will take the exit. I do not have the instinct of survival as strongly as you do.

This is what you don't get, that we are NOT all the same. Our traits are very unique. I keep pointing at evolution here - we are genetically endowed with the same basic instincts for instance, but not everyone has the individual instincts in the same potency, and some don't have them at all. Life is always looking for a better way, a better product if you will, that is what evolution is. That is why we are mapped differently. The majority of people will be "normal" - they will have fairly consistent amounts of the instincts, body chemicals, physical disease resistance and so forth. These endowments determine how we will go through life, how and when we "choose" things. It's not all about nurture. Nurture and nature are both part of it. Mom pointed this out already.

Please see my response to Mom above.

The choices we make cannot be solely predetermined because real-time information updates everything we gathered previously.

What this means is that free will is not a static, but rather a dynamic. It depends on both that which is currently static- such as what we gathered in the past- and also what we currently input from real-time information.

At this very moment we could make a choice of "yes," but ten seconds from now we can change it to "no" based upon new information.

We can never choose in the past or the future, for all choices are done in the moment. Hence, the free will to chose can only ever happen according to real-time information- living in the moment.

Free will is a dynamic that also updates second by second. How then can the so-called "illusion of free will" be solely dependent upon something preexisting within us?

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-02-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(14-02-2015 09:56 AM)Free Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 06:35 PM)Dom Wrote:  I don't know how suicide enters into this. I am predisposed to commit suicide myself, the chances that I will die by my own hand are very high, unless I get run over by a truck or die of a sudden heart attack or something. But, if faced with losing independence because of physical deterioration, I will take the exit. I do not have the instinct of survival as strongly as you do.

This is what you don't get, that we are NOT all the same. Our traits are very unique. I keep pointing at evolution here - we are genetically endowed with the same basic instincts for instance, but not everyone has the individual instincts in the same potency, and some don't have them at all. Life is always looking for a better way, a better product if you will, that is what evolution is. That is why we are mapped differently. The majority of people will be "normal" - they will have fairly consistent amounts of the instincts, body chemicals, physical disease resistance and so forth. These endowments determine how we will go through life, how and when we "choose" things. It's not all about nurture. Nurture and nature are both part of it. Mom pointed this out already.

Please see my response to Mom above.

The choices we make cannot be solely predetermined because real-time information updates everything we gathered previously.

What this means is that free will is not a static, but rather a dynamic. It depends on both that which is currently static- such as what we gathered in the past- and also what we currently input from real-time information.

At this very moment we could make a choice of "yes," but ten seconds from now we can change it to "no" based upon new information.

We can never choose in the past or the future, for all choices are done in the moment. Hence, the free will to chose can only ever happen according to real-time information- living in the moment.

Free will is a dynamic that also updates second by second. How then can the so-called "illusion of free will" be solely dependent upon something preexisting within us?

Current info is of course recorded and added into the equation. It is part of what is described as "nurture", meaning the input we have received while living our lives. It is only a part of it, when you add up all the nature (hardware) and nurture (software) items going through our brains as we make decisions, the latest info input assumes a minor position.

But of course, yes, we keep learning and growing. It's just that current time info is a lot less of what creates your response than you think. Your brain is ready with answers for most situations, it just quickly runs the current info as check to see if adjustments are needed.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-02-2015, 10:49 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(14-02-2015 10:27 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 09:56 AM)Free Wrote:  Please see my response to Mom above.

The choices we make cannot be solely predetermined because real-time information updates everything we gathered previously.

What this means is that free will is not a static, but rather a dynamic. It depends on both that which is currently static- such as what we gathered in the past- and also what we currently input from real-time information.

At this very moment we could make a choice of "yes," but ten seconds from now we can change it to "no" based upon new information.

We can never choose in the past or the future, for all choices are done in the moment. Hence, the free will to chose can only ever happen according to real-time information- living in the moment.

Free will is a dynamic that also updates second by second. How then can the so-called "illusion of free will" be solely dependent upon something preexisting within us?

Current info is of course recorded and added into the equation. It is part of what is described as "nurture", meaning the input we have received while living our lives. It is only a part of it, when you add up all the nature (hardware) and nurture (software) items going through our brains as we make decisions, the latest info input assumes a minor position.

But of course, yes, we keep learning and growing. It's just that current time info is a lot less of what creates your response than you think. Your brain is ready with answers for most situations, it just quickly runs the current info as check to see if adjustments are needed.

And that is my point regarding free will; it is a dynamic that is adjusted in real-time, and therefore cannot be solely dependent upon predetermination.

When real-time information is added to the equation, the dynamic changes, and therefore the choices we make may also change.

Each moment that passes, a new choice is made. No matter what we do, we are always choosing something. This very moment I am choosing a key on my keyboard as the information in my brain is being processed. I am responding to your comments, and making choices about what I am trying to relay.

So if this ability to make choices second by second based upon real-time information is not free will, then what is it?

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-02-2015, 07:15 PM
RE: Free will or not?
(14-02-2015 10:49 AM)Free Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 10:27 AM)Dom Wrote:  Current info is of course recorded and added into the equation. It is part of what is described as "nurture", meaning the input we have received while living our lives. It is only a part of it, when you add up all the nature (hardware) and nurture (software) items going through our brains as we make decisions, the latest info input assumes a minor position.

But of course, yes, we keep learning and growing. It's just that current time info is a lot less of what creates your response than you think. Your brain is ready with answers for most situations, it just quickly runs the current info as check to see if adjustments are needed.

And that is my point regarding free will; it is a dynamic that is adjusted in real-time, and therefore cannot be solely dependent upon predetermination.

When real-time information is added to the equation, the dynamic changes, and therefore the choices we make may also change.

Each moment that passes, a new choice is made. No matter what we do, we are always choosing something. This very moment I am choosing a key on my keyboard as the information in my brain is being processed. I am responding to your comments, and making choices about what I am trying to relay.

So if this ability to make choices second by second based upon real-time information is not free will, then what is it?

I think this conversation has run it's course - I don't know how to explain better why you were pre-disposed to be sitting at the computer and why what you are telling me is the only thing you could tell me. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I'd like to leave the topic open for us though, if you think of anything else, let's talk more. It's an interesting topic.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-02-2015, 07:50 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 09:30 PM by Free.)
RE: Free will or not?
(14-02-2015 07:15 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 10:49 AM)Free Wrote:  And that is my point regarding free will; it is a dynamic that is adjusted in real-time, and therefore cannot be solely dependent upon predetermination.

When real-time information is added to the equation, the dynamic changes, and therefore the choices we make may also change.

Each moment that passes, a new choice is made. No matter what we do, we are always choosing something. This very moment I am choosing a key on my keyboard as the information in my brain is being processed. I am responding to your comments, and making choices about what I am trying to relay.

So if this ability to make choices second by second based upon real-time information is not free will, then what is it?

I think this conversation has run it's course - I don't know how to explain better why you were pre-disposed to be sitting at the computer and why what you are telling me is the only thing you could tell me. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I'd like to leave the topic open for us though, if you think of anything else, let's talk more. It's an interesting topic.

I made a choice about what to tell you based upon the current situation and information. I tend to think that if free will didn't exist, we could not have this conversation because you, me, and everyone else would be in total agreement about everything.

The fact that we are all so diverse and no two of us perfectly identical is indicative of how the random effect weaves into each of us on an individual basis with randomized ramifications.

The only constant is all of this is that we all have this ability to choose, and no amount of dynamic random variables or static predetermination has ever changed that. We choose based upon current information, and the choices we make are not forced by predeterminating factors, but rather invoked by our ability to reason. The ability to reason has varied degrees in each of us due to many factors, but the constant factor is always the availability of current information.

We make choices based upon current knowledge; a real-time factor which is processed, reasoned, evaluated, and then outputed. Yes, previous information, character traits, evolution, and life experience contribute to the choices we make, but nano second to nano second we continue to process new information, develop new character traits, evolve more, and gain more life experience.

Predetermination appears to be a static that cannot change. Yet here we are, changing on a daily basis, moment by moment. Therefore, the bigger question to me is:

Does Predetermination exist?

How can it exist if we can change?

Consider

Whatever the truth is, we still do not know for a certainty. Perhaps the future will reveal more about whether free will exists or not, but currently both arguments for and against have their points. Also, it's entirely possible that we are so far off the mark in understanding any of this that both free will and predetermination may not even be in the same ballpark as the actual reality of whatever this actually is.

I simply lean more towards its existence, but I am always at the ready to appeal to the thoughts of others such as yourself to see what beast I can unloosen from the abyss that is the mind.

Thumbsup

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: