Free will or not?
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15-02-2015, 04:14 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)Free Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:15 PM)Dom Wrote:  I think this conversation has run it's course - I don't know how to explain better why you were pre-disposed to be sitting at the computer and why what you are telling me is the only thing you could tell me. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I'd like to leave the topic open for us though, if you think of anything else, let's talk more. It's an interesting topic.

I made a choice about what to tell you based upon the current situation and information. I tend to think that if free will didn't exist, we could not have this conversation because you, me, and everyone else would be in total agreement about everything.

The fact that we are all so diverse and no two of us perfectly identical is indicative of how the random effect weaves into each of us on an individual basis with randomized ramifications.

The only constant is all of this is that we all have this ability to choose, and no amount of dynamic random variables or static predetermination has ever changed that. We choose based upon current information, and the choices we make are not forced by predeterminating factors, but rather invoked by our ability to reason. The ability to reason has varied degrees in each of us due to many factors, but the constant factor is always the availability of current information.

We make choices based upon current knowledge; a real-time factor which is processed, reasoned, evaluated, and then outputed. Yes, previous information, character traits, evolution, and life experience contribute to the choices we make, but nano second to nano second we continue to process new information, develop new character traits, evolve more, and gain more life experience.

Predetermination appears to be a static that cannot change. Yet here we are, changing on a daily basis, moment by moment. Therefore, the bigger question to me is:

Does Predetermination exist?

How can it exist if we can change?

Consider

Whatever the truth is, we still do not know for a certainty. Perhaps the future will reveal more about whether free will exists or not, but currently both arguments for and against have their points. Also, it's entirely possible that we are so far off the mark in understanding any of this that both free will and predetermination may not even be in the same ballpark as the actual reality of whatever this actually is.

I simply lean more towards its existence, but I am always at the ready to appeal to the thoughts of others such as yourself to see what beast I can unloosen from the abyss that is the mind.

Thumbsup

Lol, don't be sucking me in again, it's too easy, I can't resist! Smile Yes there is a bit of wriggle room for real time input to change things, but the way it changes things depends on what level intelligence you were endowed with, what your hardware is, and what your software is. Reduces the actual impact of real time input to a very small fraction of what will play part in your "decisions".

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-02-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(15-02-2015 04:14 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)Free Wrote:  I made a choice about what to tell you based upon the current situation and information. I tend to think that if free will didn't exist, we could not have this conversation because you, me, and everyone else would be in total agreement about everything.

The fact that we are all so diverse and no two of us perfectly identical is indicative of how the random effect weaves into each of us on an individual basis with randomized ramifications.

The only constant is all of this is that we all have this ability to choose, and no amount of dynamic random variables or static predetermination has ever changed that. We choose based upon current information, and the choices we make are not forced by predeterminating factors, but rather invoked by our ability to reason. The ability to reason has varied degrees in each of us due to many factors, but the constant factor is always the availability of current information.

We make choices based upon current knowledge; a real-time factor which is processed, reasoned, evaluated, and then outputed. Yes, previous information, character traits, evolution, and life experience contribute to the choices we make, but nano second to nano second we continue to process new information, develop new character traits, evolve more, and gain more life experience.

Predetermination appears to be a static that cannot change. Yet here we are, changing on a daily basis, moment by moment. Therefore, the bigger question to me is:

Does Predetermination exist?

How can it exist if we can change?

Consider

Whatever the truth is, we still do not know for a certainty. Perhaps the future will reveal more about whether free will exists or not, but currently both arguments for and against have their points. Also, it's entirely possible that we are so far off the mark in understanding any of this that both free will and predetermination may not even be in the same ballpark as the actual reality of whatever this actually is.

I simply lean more towards its existence, but I am always at the ready to appeal to the thoughts of others such as yourself to see what beast I can unloosen from the abyss that is the mind.

Thumbsup

Lol, don't be sucking me in again, it's too easy, I can't resist! Smile

It had to be done. You are too good with that brain of yours for me to let you simply slip away. Tongue


Quote:Yes there is a bit of wriggle room for real time input to change things, but the way it changes things depends on what level intelligence you were endowed with, what your hardware is, and what your software is. Reduces the actual impact of real time input to a very small fraction of what will play part in your "decisions".

Yet, even you admit of the possibility of randomness in existence. Therefore, even if we are hardwired with some degree of predetermination, we would be facing unknown random input second by second which can update the hardwired part of us.

Hence, I tend to think that since the input upgrades the hard-wiring, then that which was supposedly predetermined has been altered in real-time due to random effects.

Therefore, 10 seconds ago things should have happened in a specific way in ten seconds, but within those ten seconds we got upgraded with new random information which altered what would have been predetermined.

So my point is that, if there are indeed random variables being inputted into each of us in real-time, and it changes us second by second, then I tend to think that anything that was supposedly predetermined has been altered.

If that is true, then predetermination cannot be whatever this is.

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15-02-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: Free will or not?
(15-02-2015 10:01 AM)Free Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 04:14 AM)Dom Wrote:  Lol, don't be sucking me in again, it's too easy, I can't resist! Smile

It had to be done. You are too good with that brain of yours for me to let you simply slip away. Tongue


Quote:Yes there is a bit of wriggle room for real time input to change things, but the way it changes things depends on what level intelligence you were endowed with, what your hardware is, and what your software is. Reduces the actual impact of real time input to a very small fraction of what will play part in your "decisions".

Yet, even you admit of the possibility of randomness in existence. Therefore, even if we are hardwired with some degree of predetermination, we would be facing unknown random input second by second which can update the hardwired part of us.

Hence, I tend to think that since the input upgrades the hard-wiring, then that which was supposedly predetermined has been altered in real-time due to random effects.

Therefore, 10 seconds ago things should have happened in a specific way in ten seconds, but within those ten seconds we got upgraded with new random information which altered what would have been predetermined.

So my point is that, if there are indeed random variables being inputted into each of us in real-time, and it changes us second by second, then I tend to think that anything that was supposedly predetermined has been altered.

If that is true, then predetermination cannot be whatever this is.

I don't think the hardware updates that quickly, that would be physical evolution and that is very, very slow. The software updates. With the update added, the recent random event continues to contribute to your decision making, albeit as a tiny fraction of the considered options.

I think where we differ is the weight and impact of each type of input. You say the impact of real time random events is huge and immediate, I say it's tiny and slow.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-02-2015, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 01:41 PM by Free.)
RE: Free will or not?
(15-02-2015 11:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 10:01 AM)Free Wrote:  It had to be done. You are too good with that brain of yours for me to let you simply slip away. Tongue



Yet, even you admit of the possibility of randomness in existence. Therefore, even if we are hardwired with some degree of predetermination, we would be facing unknown random input second by second which can update the hardwired part of us.

Hence, I tend to think that since the input upgrades the hard-wiring, then that which was supposedly predetermined has been altered in real-time due to random effects.

Therefore, 10 seconds ago things should have happened in a specific way in ten seconds, but within those ten seconds we got upgraded with new random information which altered what would have been predetermined.

So my point is that, if there are indeed random variables being inputted into each of us in real-time, and it changes us second by second, then I tend to think that anything that was supposedly predetermined has been altered.

If that is true, then predetermination cannot be whatever this is.

I don't think the hardware updates that quickly, that would be physical evolution and that is very, very slow. The software updates. With the update added, the recent random event continues to contribute to your decision making, albeit as a tiny fraction of the considered options.

I think where we differ is the weight and impact of each type of input. You say the impact of real time random events is huge and immediate, I say it's tiny and slow.

But despite that it could be minuscule, it would exist nonetheless. And because it exists, and changes anything small ever so slightly either with the hardware or software, it demonstrates that the perceived predestination is not static, but dynamic. If it is dynamic, then it cannot be predestination.

It's a real-time state that may be influenced by the previous state, but not controlled by the previous state. Rather, it is controlled by the current real-time state.

So what is this real-time state? Free will? It can't be predestination, so what else is there?

I honestly don't know, but I do know that "something" exists that causes us to make instantaneous choices based upon randomized real-time information.

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15-02-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Free will or not?
(15-02-2015 12:47 PM)Free Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 11:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  I don't think the hardware updates that quickly, that would be physical evolution and that is very, very slow. The software updates. With the update added, the recent random event continues to contribute to your decision making, albeit as a tiny fraction of the considered options.

I think where we differ is the weight and impact of each type of input. You say the impact of real time random events is huge and immediate, I say it's tiny and slow.

But despite that it could be minuscule, it would exist nonetheless. And because it exists, and changes anything small ever so slightly either with the hardware or software, it demonstrates that the perceived predestination is not static, but dynamic. If it is dynamic, then it cannot be predestination.

It's a real-time state that may be influenced by the previous state, but not controlled by the previous state. Rather, it is controlled by the current real-time state.

So what is this real-time state? Free will? It can't be predestination, so what else is there?

I honestly don't know, but I do know that "something" exists that causes us to make instantaneous choices based upon randomized real-time information.

Another thing to clarify when talking about this is the old "what am I".

I take it to be your conscious self - but if you define it any other way then our discussion could go very differently. There is much more to us than our conscious self.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-02-2015, 02:06 PM
RE: Free will or not?
(15-02-2015 02:00 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 12:47 PM)Free Wrote:  But despite that it could be minuscule, it would exist nonetheless. And because it exists, and changes anything small ever so slightly either with the hardware or software, it demonstrates that the perceived predestination is not static, but dynamic. If it is dynamic, then it cannot be predestination.

It's a real-time state that may be influenced by the previous state, but not controlled by the previous state. Rather, it is controlled by the current real-time state.

So what is this real-time state? Free will? It can't be predestination, so what else is there?

I honestly don't know, but I do know that "something" exists that causes us to make instantaneous choices based upon randomized real-time information.

Another thing to clarify when talking about this is the old "what am I".

I take it to be your conscious self - but if you define it any other way then our discussion could go very differently. There is much more to us than our conscious self.

Agreed!

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