Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
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09-12-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 03:52 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  IMHO

Choice is an illusion. Free will is an illusion. We all do what we do as a direct result of physical and observable actions and reactions on the large and infinitesimally small scale that was all set forth even prior to the Big Bang. Even if you believe in true randomness in things like radiation I would still say that our actions as humans were virtually prewritten since our conception.

There is a correlation between what we do and physical observations.
But which one causes which? I suggest, that the physical observations
are the result of what we do, not the other way around.

I think determinism is an illusion. Just because we can use science to predict
some things with some accuracy, does not mean that everything is predictable
with unlimited accuracy.
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09-12-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 12:29 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 03:52 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  IMHO

Choice is an illusion. Free will is an illusion. We all do what we do as a direct result of physical and observable actions and reactions on the large and infinitesimally small scale that was all set forth even prior to the Big Bang. Even if you believe in true randomness in things like radiation I would still say that our actions as humans were virtually prewritten since our conception.

There is a correlation between what we do and physical observations.
But which one causes which? I suggest, that the physical observations
are the result of what we do, not the other way around.

I think determinism is an illusion. Just because we can use science to predict
some things with some accuracy, does not mean that everything is predictable
with unlimited accuracy.

You were pre-determined to think that. Wink

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09-12-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
The problem with this is that nothing can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I have always felt that many atheists oppose Free Will because they feel it represents some religious dogma such as "God gave mankind free will."

It has nothing to do with religion.

It simply comes down to what we choose to believe according to all available information. Here are the options:

1. Determinism exists, therefore Free Will does not exist.

2. Randomness exists, therefore Free Will does exist.

3. Both Determinism & Randomness both co-exist, and therefore Free Will exists in a limited capacity.

I stand on Option 3.

Where do any of you stand? Or, are there are other options?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-12-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 02:11 PM)Free Wrote:  Where do any of you stand? Or, are there are other options?
I'm an advocate of compatibilism as well. Thumbsup

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09-12-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
Hmm...I don't think it relates to religion at all for most people, though I could be wrong. It certainly doesn't have anything to do with religion to me. If I were to relate the problem to the Abrahamic God I would be inclined to think there was no free will as well. An all knowing, all powerful creator cannot possibly create anything that has a factor of chance to it whatsoever.

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09-12-2013, 03:55 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2013 03:59 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 02:11 PM)Free Wrote:  The problem with this is that nothing can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I have always felt that many atheists oppose Free Will because they feel it represents some religious dogma such as "God gave mankind free will."

It has nothing to do with religion.

It simply comes down to what we choose to believe according to all available information. Here are the options:

1. Determinism exists, therefore Free Will does not exist.

2. Randomness exists, therefore Free Will does exist.

3. Both Determinism & Randomness both co-exist, and therefore Free Will exists in a limited capacity.

I stand on Option 3.

Where do any of you stand? Or, are there are other options?

How on earth does a combination mean free will exists, or randomness by itself? That doesn't make sense.

Cause and effect: All choices have prior causes out of our control.

Randomness: Thing just happen. How is this free will?

Cause and effect + randomness: Choices have prior causes, and some things just happen. A random event can be the cause of another.

Edited: Misread the post

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09-12-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 03:55 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 02:11 PM)Free Wrote:  The problem with this is that nothing can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I have always felt that many atheists oppose Free Will because they feel it represents some religious dogma such as "God gave mankind free will."

It has nothing to do with religion.

It simply comes down to what we choose to believe according to all available information. Here are the options:

1. Determinism exists, therefore Free Will does not exist.

2. Randomness exists, therefore Free Will does exist.

3. Both Determinism & Randomness both co-exist, and therefore Free Will exists in a limited capacity.

I stand on Option 3.

Where do any of you stand? Or, are there are other options?

How on earth does a combination mean free will exists, or randomness by itself? That doesn't make sense.

Cause and effect: All choices have prior causes out of our control.

Randomness: Thing just happen. How is this free will?

Cause and effect + randomness: Choices have prior causes, and some things just happen. A random event can be the cause of another.

Because sentient life can exact order(determinism) out of chaos (randomness).

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-12-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 04:00 PM)Free Wrote:  Because sentient life can exact order(determinism) out of chaos (randomness).

How does that statement relate to us having a choice in the matter? The two are unrelated.

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09-12-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 04:01 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 04:00 PM)Free Wrote:  Because sentient life can exact order(determinism) out of chaos (randomness).

How does that statement relate to us having a choice in the matter? The two are unrelated.

Because sentient life can chose not to exact order (determinism) out of chaos (randomness).

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-12-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(09-12-2013 04:04 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 04:01 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  How does that statement relate to us having a choice in the matter? The two are unrelated.

Because sentient life can chose not to exact order (determinism) out of chaos (randomness).

Big Grin

Basically your saying you know you have free will because you have free will. How circular.

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