Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
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10-12-2013, 12:34 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2013 01:28 PM by Free.)
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 12:09 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 11:49 AM)Free Wrote:  To me at least, it's rather obvious that the conscious mind is the first thing to observe and experience all external influences. Using our conscious mind as being the "first contact" with eternal influences, we then make judgements and choices regarding the external influences and then file it away into the subconscious for future reference.

My point is "first contact." The employment of Free Will is initiated at first contact, and we consciously make decisions and judgments before we file those decisions and judgments away into the unconscious mind.

Now, it is entirely possible for those "files" in the unconscious mind to influence the conscious mind, but it should be understood that those "files" originated and were initially judged and decided upon consciously first, from the moment of first contact.

Bearing that in mind, this demonstrates yet another example of how free will is utilized because the initial contact with all eternal influences happens on a conscious level, and it is on this conscious level where the initial choices are employed.

All we are doing after that is simply filing away our conscious choices into the unconscious mind for future reference.

Hence, it makes no sense at all that the unconscious mind gives us no ability to make choices when it was the conscious mind that made the choice and then filed it away in the first place.

Consider

Well, I think it's the opposite. The unconscious makes a zillion decisions all the time without us even knowing about it - from breathing to scratching our head to putting the food in front of us into our mouth. Only when there is an issue does the conscious mind come in - like the food is too hot and we get a pain signal as alert. But we don't consciously decide every movement used in getting the food in our stomach, we have long learned how to use a fork and knife and it's automatic.

When you drive, your reactions are automatic. When something goes wrong, you're sent an adrenaline warning and pop into attention.

We call all the automatic decisions "habit".

Now let's say you are confronted with something entirely new - lets say you run into a purple dragon. Immediately your hardware sends alarms - dragons are huge and scary. So fear is a component of your decisions regarding the dragon. Your experience with dragons is confined to fairy takes and maybe monster movies. Your brain searches all these for clues and comes back with unpleasant prospects. Now you run for your life.

If we made nilly willy decisions without the base of DNA and experience, we would not be viable. Evolution created our DNA not just physically but also to help us react with fear, or pleasure, or pain and what have you. If our conscious mind were to routinely over ride our DNA and experience, we'd be screwed.

But the problem I have with your position is that it seems very unlikely that the unconscious mind would experience first contact with external influences. To me at least, it seems far more probable that our physical sensory abilities are the first to initiate contact and process the information to the conscious mind.

Once the information hits the conscious mind, we then create a determination (Determinism) from the external influences (Randomness) and then file that all away into the unconscious mind. This theory essentially demonstrates what I have previously proposed, that sentient beings create order out of chaos; Determinism out of Randomness.

Which incidentally leaves me to ponder about the possibility of a 4th Option on my list:

Option 4: Is Free Will Completely Independent from Determinism and Randomness?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-12-2013, 01:38 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 12:34 PM)Free Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:09 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, I think it's the opposite. The unconscious makes a zillion decisions all the time without us even knowing about it - from breathing to scratching our head to putting the food in front of us into our mouth. Only when there is an issue does the conscious mind come in - like the food is too hot and we get a pain signal as alert. But we don't consciously decide every movement used in getting the food in our stomach, we have long learned how to use a fork and knife and it's automatic.

When you drive, your reactions are automatic. When something goes wrong, you're sent an adrenaline warning and pop into attention.

We call all the automatic decisions "habit".

Now let's say you are confronted with something entirely new - lets say you run into a purple dragon. Immediately your hardware sends alarms - dragons are huge and scary. So fear is a component of your decisions regarding the dragon. Your experience with dragons is confined to fairy takes and maybe monster movies. Your brain searches all these for clues and comes back with unpleasant prospects. Now you run for your life.

If we made nilly willy decisions without the base of DNA and experience, we would not be viable. Evolution created our DNA not just physically but also to help us react with fear, or pleasure, or pain and what have you. If our conscious mind were to routinely over ride our DNA and experience, we'd be screwed.

But the problem I have with your position is that it seems very unlikely that the unconscious mind would experience first contact with external influences. To me at least, it seems far more probable that our physical sensory abilities are the first to initiate contact and process the information to the conscious mind.

Once the information hits the conscious mind, we then create a determination (Determinism) from the external influences (Randomness) and then file that all away into the unconscious mind.

Which incidentally leaves me to ponder about the possibility of a 4th Option on my list:

Option 4: Is Free Will Completely Independent from Determinism and Randomness?

Ok, so I am too lazy to find research to quote to you at this time. Also, I am at work. But - yes. You see it first. But from there it does not go to the conscious mind unless there is an issue with it, or it is just super great.

For instance, there is a lot known about what happens when you surf. You actually make the decision whether you will stay and read or leave within 10 seconds. Your eyes fly across the page in a pre-determined pattern, (not at all like conscious reading, the pattern is an F shaped figure) and you have decided to read or leave.

This decision is made by your unconscious mind before you have even read a sentence.

This holds true for lots of researched other situations. You can't even think consciously as fast as your decisions are made by the unconscious.

So, what you see definitely does not go to your conscious mind first. Before it does, it is screened, evaluated and possibly discarded through brain processes you are not aware of.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-12-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 12:34 PM)Free Wrote:  But the problem I have with your position is that it seems very unlikely that the unconscious mind would experience first contact with external influences.

The reticular formation in the ancient reptilian part of the brain makes first contact. Can't make it into the conscious mind unless the reticular formation lets it through.

(10-12-2013 09:56 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  What the experiments show is that there is a difference between making a choice
and being aware of making a choice. But I can see how this relates
to the definition of "I". In a very narrow sense, "I" may only refer to all
my conscious deliberations. But in my opinion "I" is much more than that.

I buy that. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-12-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 01:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:34 PM)Free Wrote:  But the problem I have with your position is that it seems very unlikely that the unconscious mind would experience first contact with external influences.

The reticular formation in the ancient reptilian part of the brain makes first contact. Can't make it into the conscious mind unless the reticular formation lets it through.

But the point still remains ... the contact is made with the consciousness before it gets filed into the unconsciousness.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-12-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 01:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 12:34 PM)Free Wrote:  But the problem I have with your position is that it seems very unlikely that the unconscious mind would experience first contact with external influences. To me at least, it seems far more probable that our physical sensory abilities are the first to initiate contact and process the information to the conscious mind.

Once the information hits the conscious mind, we then create a determination (Determinism) from the external influences (Randomness) and then file that all away into the unconscious mind.

Which incidentally leaves me to ponder about the possibility of a 4th Option on my list:

Option 4: Is Free Will Completely Independent from Determinism and Randomness?

Ok, so I am too lazy to find research to quote to you at this time. Also, I am at work. But - yes. You see it first. But from there it does not go to the conscious mind unless there is an issue with it, or it is just super great.

For instance, there is a lot known about what happens when you surf. You actually make the decision whether you will stay and read or leave within 10 seconds. Your eyes fly across the page in a pre-determined pattern, (not at all like conscious reading, the pattern is an F shaped figure) and you have decided to read or leave.

This decision is made by your unconscious mind before you have even read a sentence.

This holds true for lots of researched other situations. You can't even think consciously as fast as your decisions are made by the unconscious.

So, what you see definitely does not go to your conscious mind first. Before it does, it is screened, evaluated and possibly discarded through brain processes you are not aware of.

Yet, it still remains that the conscious mind is what programmed the unconscious mind to store the decision in the first place. The act of deciding initiated in the conscious mind from prior experience, and then when you see the external influences again (or something similar) the memory recall kicks in from the unconscious mind.

In effect, all the unconscious mind is doing is bringing back to conscious memory a decision that was made in the conscious mind on a previous occasion.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-12-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 02:14 PM)Free Wrote:  Yet, it still remains that the conscious mind is what programmed the unconscious mind to store the decision in the first place.

No, that's not right. The subconscious limbic system records the memories. And there are implicit memories formed and retrieved without conscious involvement at all.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-12-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 02:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:14 PM)Free Wrote:  Yet, it still remains that the conscious mind is what programmed the unconscious mind to store the decision in the first place.

No, that's not right. The subconscious limbic system records the memories. And there are implicit memories formed and retrieved without conscious involvement at all.

But ... "Implicit memory is a type of memory in which previous experiences aid in the performance of a task without conscious awareness of these previous experiences" ... does not imply that the origin of the memory was not initially processed through the conscious mind.

Also ....

"In daily life, people rely on implicit memory every day in the form of procedural memory, the type of memory that allows people to remember how to tie their shoes or ride a bicycle without consciously thinking about these activities ..."

... demonstrates my point. We first learned to tie our shoes or ride a bike consciously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_memory

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-12-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 02:30 PM)Free Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  No, that's not right. The subconscious limbic system records the memories. And there are implicit memories formed and retrieved without conscious involvement at all.

But ... "Implicit memory is a type of memory in which previous experiences aid in the performance of a task without conscious awareness of these previous experiences" ... does not imply that the origin of the memory was not initially processed through the conscious mind.

Also ....

"In daily life, people rely on implicit memory every day in the form of procedural memory, the type of memory that allows people to remember how to tie their shoes or ride a bicycle without consciously thinking about these activities ..."

... demonstrates my point. We first learned to tie our shoes or ride a bike consciously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_memory

I think you give consciousness far too much credit. But meh, whatever. I ain't no neuroscientist.

There is a bunch of work on priming that is quite fascinating.

Yet the new research on priming makes it clear that we are not alone in our own consciousness. We have company, an invisible partner who has strong reactions about the world that don’t always agree with our own, but whose instincts, these studies clearly show, are at least as likely to be helpful, and attentive to others, as they are to be disruptive.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-12-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 02:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:30 PM)Free Wrote:  But ... "Implicit memory is a type of memory in which previous experiences aid in the performance of a task without conscious awareness of these previous experiences" ... does not imply that the origin of the memory was not initially processed through the conscious mind.

Also ....

"In daily life, people rely on implicit memory every day in the form of procedural memory, the type of memory that allows people to remember how to tie their shoes or ride a bicycle without consciously thinking about these activities ..."

... demonstrates my point. We first learned to tie our shoes or ride a bike consciously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_memory

I think you give consciousness far too much credit. But meh, whatever. I ain't no neuroscientist.

There is a bunch of work on priming that is quite fascinating.

Yet the new research on priming makes it clear that we are not alone in our own consciousness. We have company, an invisible partner who has strong reactions about the world that don’t always agree with our own, but whose instincts, these studies clearly show, are at least as likely to be helpful, and attentive to others, as they are to be disruptive.

The reality is that none of us knows a fucking thing about it. We're just arguing because of what each of us believes is all.

Meh ... we all make our points.

Beat_stick

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-12-2013, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2013 03:39 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 03:04 PM)Free Wrote:  The reality is ...

Can't say I believe one bit of any of it. I just play along for the fuck of it. (Like, literally. Tongue )

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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