Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
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10-12-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
I don't actually believe in my theories either. They are just theories... but they look pretty plausible to me.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-12-2013, 08:03 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  I completely understand the concept of time.

Consider

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  For you to use the term "pass away" implies a non-existence

Yes, if a phone is thrown in lava, it melts. The phone is gone. There is no need to get over-technical and talk about the particles and energy that make up the phone, the only good that does is derail the topic. We aren't debating particle physics.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  A concept that sentient life creates in an effort to bring Determinism out of Randomness.

Which is how we have been programmed by nature.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Events would still occur, things would still change. My concept of time is entirely in one piece. Your talking about time on a watch.

Yes, I am speaking about such things as a watch, and other things that sentient life creates to exact Determinism out of Randomness. Yes, events will still occur even without humankind or any sentient life's involvement. This is because Determinism can come from Randomness naturally.


Which I'm pretty sure I made clear is irrelevant to what I was talking about.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:The time you keep bringing up is, which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

It is entirely relevant to what you are talking about. Time is a creation which is exacted from either sentient life or Randomness.

Blink

...No, it isn't. The only concept you need to understand to grasp what I was saying is that things change. Change is what I was referring to with 'time'. It isn't man made time. Man didn't invent change.

You can keep trying to argue that you knew what I was saying, which you didn't. You didn't read to understand, you read to reply, which happens when a cherished belief is questioned. You should know, we see this all the time with believers in gods. Had this not been the case you wouldn't have gone off on tangents about time. The concept that things are in a specific state at one moment of time is elementary. (be it a mixed state or a superposition of states, whatever, it changes nothing )

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  How does one withhold belief when the ability to make choices is self-evident, at least it is on the surface?
(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  It's not an assumption when it is self-evident.

So is god to a believer. When you accept something your whole life, it tends to be self evident to you. It's not self evident to me. So where do we go from here? Do you tell me I'm wrong, that it is in fact self evident? I know a group of people that love doing that...

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  In fact, your argument is circular because of your assumptions are based upon unproven theories.

What unproven theory is that? That things change? That things are a certain way at a certain time? Oh yes, very controversial.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:And of course there are no forces that dictate the evolution of particles in your brain... Thumbsup

No one says there isn't. So your point is ... what? That the evolution of the brain is predetermined and that there is no way any such thing as a random variable can influence it? Really?

I never made the claim that everything is preordained. Randomness surely could exist in the world.

What makes no sense is how you think randomness = freedom of will. Explain that.

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10-12-2013, 09:03 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 08:03 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  I completely understand the concept of time.

Consider

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  For you to use the term "pass away" implies a non-existence

Yes, if a phone is thrown in lava, it melts. The phone is gone. There is no need to get over-technical and talk about the particles and energy that make up the phone, the only good that does is derail the topic. We aren't debating particle physics.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  A concept that sentient life creates in an effort to bring Determinism out of Randomness.

Which is how we have been programmed by nature.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  Yes, I am speaking about such things as a watch, and other things that sentient life creates to exact Determinism out of Randomness. Yes, events will still occur even without humankind or any sentient life's involvement. This is because Determinism can come from Randomness naturally.


Which I'm pretty sure I made clear is irrelevant to what I was talking about.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  It is entirely relevant to what you are talking about. Time is a creation which is exacted from either sentient life or Randomness.

Blink

...No, it isn't. The only concept you need to understand to grasp what I was saying is that things change. Change is what I was referring to with 'time'. It isn't man made time. Man didn't invent change.

You can keep trying to argue that you knew what I was saying, which you didn't. You didn't read to understand, you read to reply, which happens when a cherished belief is questioned. You should know, we see this all the time with believers in gods. Had this not been the case you wouldn't have gone off on tangents about time. The concept that things are in a specific state at one moment of time is elementary. (be it a mixed state or a superposition of states, whatever, it changes nothing )

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  How does one withhold belief when the ability to make choices is self-evident, at least it is on the surface?
(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  It's not an assumption when it is self-evident.

So is god to a believer. When you accept something your whole life, it tends to be self evident to you. It's not self evident to me. So where do we go from here? Do you tell me I'm wrong, that it is in fact self evident? I know a group of people that love doing that...

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  In fact, your argument is circular because of your assumptions are based upon unproven theories.

What unproven theory is that? That things change? That things are a certain way at a certain time? Oh yes, very controversial.

(10-12-2013 10:06 AM)Free Wrote:  No one says there isn't. So your point is ... what? That the evolution of the brain is predetermined and that there is no way any such thing as a random variable can influence it? Really?

I never made the claim that everything is preordained. Randomness surely could exist in the world.

What makes no sense is how you think randomness = freedom of will. Explain that.

Nobody cares anymore. This thread has now officially been hijacked.

We are now talking about trains.

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Tongue

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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11-12-2013, 03:49 AM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(10-12-2013 09:56 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  What the experiments show is that there is a difference between making a choice
and being aware of making a choice.
The research shows we actually don't make a choice at all.
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11-12-2013, 04:26 AM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
Is there freedom of research or do we research what we tell ourselves to research :O

There is no free will, just as much as there is no free choice, free speech, free conscience or free living.

Humans are societal animals, we conform to society, we have hardwired stuff that does most of our thinking for us.. If I yawn, you are perfectly wihtin your right to have freedom of action and not yawn, but because its hardwired you (may) yawn too. Nothing to do with your current state, just a hardwired function of Human animals. Society in itself limits our will and choice, the 'freedom' of conscience, does not stop us berating YEC's no?
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11-12-2013, 04:13 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2013 04:17 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(11-12-2013 04:26 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Is there freedom of research or do we research what we tell ourselves to research :O

There is no free will, just as much as there is no free choice, free speech, free conscience or free living.

Humans are societal animals, we conform to society, we have hardwired stuff that does most of our thinking for us.. If I yawn, you are perfectly wihtin your right to have freedom of action and not yawn, but because its hardwired you (may) yawn too. Nothing to do with your current state, just a hardwired function of Human animals. Society in itself limits our will and choice, the 'freedom' of conscience, does not stop us berating YEC's no?

I think everyone can accept they don't have control over everything.

Peoples issue is with having control over nothing. So they say there is a bit of free will, which comes from, where exactly? The very consciousness that is a result of the material brain? It's like saying our conscious mind determines the brains evolution instead of saying the conscious mind is a result of the evolving brain, the processes of the brain.

----

The best evidence for free will is "I feel like I'm choosing". People think they do choose ("It's self evident") because when a plan for an action becomes conscious we feel that it is us as the conscious entity that made the decision.

Decisions aren't made by the conscious mind they are the result of the ongoing processes happening in the brain, some of which become conscious. I would actually argue that there is no such thing as a decision (conscious or unconscious), that it is also an illusion, and the path of a human being is as limited as a tumbling stone. I don't mean that all we can do is fall, that's obviously not true. We have more complex behaviors because we as a system are much more complex. But I don't see how decisions become a reality just because a system becomes more complex.

So my view is that when we are jumping back and forth between two options (chocolate milk or iced tea for instance), there are just two conflicting circuits (two conflicting parts of the brain), each inhibiting the other until one wins out. This is as much a choice as a satellite in orbit falling towards the earth, why doesn't it fall towards the moon instead? The earths pull is stronger at that distance. It doesn't choose to stay with the earth.

That was longer than I had intended it to be Tongue

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11-12-2013, 06:28 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
This Coursera course looks relevant: Unpredictable? Randomness, Chance and Free Will I signed up for it.




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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11-12-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(11-12-2013 06:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  This Coursera course looks relevant: Unpredictable? Randomness, Chance and Free Will I signed up for it.




Interesting idea for a class, strange video.

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12-12-2013, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2013 08:01 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
(11-12-2013 04:13 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  The best evidence for free will is "I feel like I'm choosing". People think they do choose ("It's self evident") because when a plan for an action becomes conscious we feel that it is us as the conscious entity that made the decision.
This ,Free will is basically the "illusion of control"


skip to 08:01 where he talks about the illusion of time perception and illusion of control.

We don't really have much control over anything and yet we somehow want to feel that we kinda are,that's why the test with stock market shows that people "Felt" like they had control over the stocks even though those buttons were pretty much useless.

Free choice is when there are no consequences and your brain basically just juggles both options because eitherway you don't really care about the outcome,sure buttercream ice cream may taste slightly better than chocolate but.. its not important is it ?
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12-12-2013, 08:24 PM
RE: Freedom of Choice VS Freedom Of Will (Yes this is seriously a dilemma)
Good video.

(12-12-2013 01:57 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  We don't really have much control over anything and yet we somehow want to feel that we kind are.. that's why the test with stock market shows that people "Felt" like they had control over the stock even though those buttons were pretty much useless.

Yep. Interesting experiment.

(12-12-2013 01:57 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Free choice is when there are no consequences and your brain basically just juggles both options because eitherway you don't really care about the outcome,sure buttercream ice cream may taste slightly better than chocolate but.. its not important is it ?

I don't think the 'free choice' exists regardless of the scenario. Also, there can be juggling options in situations in which the outcome could mean death.

Your driving in a car going 120km/h and your steering wheel and brakes cut out, there is a wall ahead of you. Do you jump out of the car? or will you slow down enough in the time it takes to reach the wall for the airbag to save you? Clearly the consequence of the wrong choice can mean death.

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