Freewill and bible compilation
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24-11-2015, 01:01 PM
Freewill and bible compilation
In the past, on here and in my blog, I've touched on the problem of freewill within the bible, but this is different.

When theists believe the bible is the word of their god, that this deity guided the hands (and thoughts, apparently) of its compilation, is this not a form of control and in direct conflict with freewill?

Forget the obvious mistakes, contradictions and fictional bullshit we all know that it is, which clearly proves it's not divine, I'm just seeking more fault with this worldview.

When theists say god was speaking through these people, how is THAT not an infringement upon their freewill to decide what belongs in the bible? And for that matter, when certain books were put in, then taken out, then put back in, was THAT this infallible omniscient god really not being sure what to do with this book until finally settling on, "Let's put this in, my minions?"

That's some God ya got there.

I believe if what they believe is true then their god fucked with their freewill and they have a whole new set of complaints.

Am I wrong?

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24-11-2015, 01:16 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
1) When theists believe the bible is the word of their god, that this deity guided the hands (and thoughts, apparently) of its compilation, is this not a form of control and in direct conflict with freewill?
2)Am I wrong?

1)No
2)Yes

God gave them revelations(knowledge). To give someone knowledge/information is not controlling someone.
God didn't guide their hands and thoughts. God gives us knowledge and then we guide our hands and thoughts.
God gives us instructions/knowledge/laws and then we govern ourselves

God doesn't give us freewill. He gives us moral agency.

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24-11-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
(24-11-2015 01:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  1) When theists believe the bible is the word of their god, that this deity guided the hands (and thoughts, apparently) of its compilation, is this not a form of control and in direct conflict with freewill?
2)Am I wrong?

1)No
2)Yes

God gave them revelations(knowledge). To give someone knowledge/information is not controlling someone.
God didn't guide their hands and thoughts. God gives us knowledge and then we guide our hands and thoughts.
God gives us instructions/knowledge/laws and then we govern ourselves

God doesn't give us freewill. He gives us moral agency.

Sorry, but if it were knowledge he was giving you, you would know it. If he is implanting this knowledge then he is controlling you. If the final outcome is of his liking then he controlled that.

And are you seriously saying moral agency is equal to freewill? Or are you even suggesting your god, whatever it is in your Mormon mind, makes you do whatever he wants since you are saying he doesn't give you freewill?

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24-11-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
(24-11-2015 01:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Sorry, but if it were knowledge he was giving you, you would know it. If he is implanting this knowledge then he is controlling you. If the final outcome is of his liking then he controlled that.
I can reject any knowledge I want. If I can reject it means God doesn't control me. To offer knowledge is not = controlling someone.
(24-11-2015 01:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  And are you seriously saying moral agency is equal to freewill? Or are you even suggesting your god, whatever it is in your Mormon mind, makes you do whatever he wants since you are saying he doesn't give you freewill?
God doesn't say anything about freewill. But you can show me some sources where He talks about freewill. God gives us moral agency - agency to choose between good and evil.

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24-11-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
So you are saying you don't have freewill?

And how can you reject knowledge that is implanted in your head? Do you actually understand what you are saying? It's not as if your god sat these bible writers down and had a class with them and they could choose to accept what he said or reject it. If he guided this book, then they had no choice in the matter.

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24-11-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
(24-11-2015 02:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 01:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Sorry, but if it were knowledge he was giving you, you would know it. If he is implanting this knowledge then he is controlling you. If the final outcome is of his liking then he controlled that.
I can reject any knowledge I want. If I can reject it means God doesn't control me. To offer knowledge is not = controlling someone.
(24-11-2015 01:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  And are you seriously saying moral agency is equal to freewill? Or are you even suggesting your god, whatever it is in your Mormon mind, makes you do whatever he wants since you are saying he doesn't give you freewill?
God doesn't say anything about freewill. But you can show me some sources where He talks about freewill. God gives us moral agency - agency to choose between good and evil.

Then where does God say he gives you moral agency? Plenty of people such as KC don't believe that is the case at all either.

Also, did angels or other celestial beings have the moral agency or free will themselves? That's often the quizabuck to the situation because some proclaim we have to be human to have moral agency but their claims of angels speak of them having the same ideas. Why would there be a distinction if they have the same abilities?

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24-11-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
This moral agency bullshit is just a fancy way of saying you are allowed to make choices, but Alla is failing to follow this to its obvious conclusion.

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24-11-2015, 02:40 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
(24-11-2015 02:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 01:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Sorry, but if it were knowledge he was giving you, you would know it. If he is implanting this knowledge then he is controlling you. If the final outcome is of his liking then he controlled that.
I can reject any knowledge I want. If I can reject it means God doesn't control me. To offer knowledge is not = controlling someone.
(24-11-2015 01:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  And are you seriously saying moral agency is equal to freewill? Or are you even suggesting your god, whatever it is in your Mormon mind, makes you do whatever he wants since you are saying he doesn't give you freewill?
God doesn't say anything about freewill. But you can show me some sources where He talks about freewill. God gives us moral agency - agency to choose between good and evil.

Actually he doesn't. Neuro-science has proven decisions are made before we are conscious of them.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-11-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
(24-11-2015 02:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 02:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  I can reject any knowledge I want. If I can reject it means God doesn't control me. To offer knowledge is not = controlling someone.
God doesn't say anything about freewill. But you can show me some sources where He talks about freewill. God gives us moral agency - agency to choose between good and evil.

Actually he doesn't. Neuro-science has proven decisions are made before we are conscious of them.

I call bullshit, all it's proven is that reactionary impulses are thought out before we are conscious of them... or at least that's all i'm forced to think by my brains nature.

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24-11-2015, 03:19 PM
RE: Freewill and bible compilation
(24-11-2015 02:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  So you are saying you don't have freewill?
No, I don't say this. I only say that God didn't say that He gave us freewill.
God said that He gave us moral agency - agency to choose between good and evil.
(24-11-2015 02:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  And how can you reject knowledge that is implanted in your head?
1)By not believing it is true.
2)By not acting upon this knowledge.
(24-11-2015 02:24 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Do you actually understand what you are saying? It's not as if your god sat these bible writers down and had a class with them and they could choose to accept what he said or reject it. If he guided this book, then they had no choice in the matter.
God was giving them revelations. God told them to write it down.
Later prophets had to "digest" what God was teaching them, they also had to figure out how to explain people what God taught them. Only then they would sit down and write to the best of their understanding and memory.
They also had moral agency. They could choose good - to obey God and write, or they could choose evil - not to obey God and not write them down.

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