French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
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25-08-2016, 08:56 PM
This just doesn't make sense to me.
The Burkini ban in France. For those of you who haven't seen the photo of the woman on the beach who was asked to remove her burka, here she is prior to being asked to remove her tunic.

[Image: PAY-burkini.jpg]

She removes her tunic.

[Image: PAY-burkini.jpg]

I've covered myself almost as much as this lady because I burn like crazy and yes I know that's MY choice. But what the hell. The French, of all people, should know that clothing regulations have never worked. I've studied textiles and costume history for 25 years and for the last 3 thousand years whenever people have had clothing laws (yes, there have been numerous clothing laws over the centuries) it usually backfires.

Usually clothing regulations are based on political power or on morality therefore royal families or the church banned them. Too much skin was showing, the heel of the shoe is too high, even the shoe was too pointed. These shoes below were banned by the church as being too phallic and attracting women. Men wore them anyway and even added bells on the end to attract even more women.

[Image: II_01_12.jpg]

The funny thing about those Poulaine shoes is that it was influenced by the pointed shoes of the Middle East Muslims during the Crusades.

Here are some Sumptuary Laws throughout history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law

Almost every historical movement of people from one country to another has them keeping some of the traditional costume they're familiar with but slowly converting to the new garments of their adopted land. It usually takes a couple of generations. Clothing laws are ridiculous.

Rant over.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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25-08-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(25-08-2016 08:56 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The Burkini ban in France. For those of you who haven't seen the photo of the woman on the beach who was asked to remove her burka, here she is prior to being asked to remove her tunic.

She removes her tunic.

I don't understand why she was asked to remove the tunic. What was the purpose? Consider

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25-08-2016, 09:12 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2016 09:28 PM by excitedpenguin.)
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
All due respect, this particular clothing ban is nothing like the examples you alluded at. My understanding is, it's in order to counteract the compelling of women to have a specific dress code under the auspices of their particular religion. So it's exactly the opposite. Normally I would be opposed to this kind of thing under any pretext but I have to make an exception where Islam is involved. Looking the other way clearly doesn't work. I wouldn't be surprised if it came one day to banning the religion altogether. It would certainly be better than giving up on civilization, and this ideology happens to be it's biggest threat at this point in history.

It worked with Communism. It should work with Islam. Let's hope it doesn't get there, though.

I don't think having to give up on that hideous style of clothing is the worst thing in the world, considering how much they have to gain from having it banned. Namely, they are finally standing up to the dogma in a way that lets it know it won't tolerate its bullshit like more regressive liberal counterparts from other Western countries might. I think that's a good message to broadcast to the religious maniacs who are looking to dominate everything in sight.

Inb4, #NotAllMuslims, #YouBigot, #It'sGrossIt'sRacist, I am criticizing only the crazier proponents of Islam here as well as the unfortunate influence they have over many Muslim communities. My comment might be ignorant in a lot of ways as well as hasty to an extent, and I await for others to point that out to a t, but don't get on my case just for telling it as I see it.
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25-08-2016, 09:20 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(25-08-2016 09:12 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  All due respect, this particular clothing ban is nothing like the examples you alluded at. My understanding is its in order to counteract the compelling of women to have a specific dress code under the auspices of their particular religion. So it's exactly the opposite. Normally I would be opposed to this kind of thing under any pretext but I have to make an exception where Islam is involved. Looking the other way clearly doesn't work. I wouldn't be surprised if it came one day to banning the religion altogether. It would certainly be better than giving up on civilization, and this ideology happens to be it's biggest threat at this point in history.

It worked with Communism. It should work with Islam. Let's hope it doesn't get there, though.

I don't think having to give up on that hideous style of clothing is the worst thing in the world, considering how much they have to gain from having it banned. Namely, they are finally standing up to the dogma in a way that lets it know it won't tolerate its bullshit like more regressive liberals counterparts from other Western countries might. I think that's a good message to broadcast to the religious maniacs who are looking to dominate everything in sight.

Inb4, #NotAllMuslims, #YouBigot, #It'sGrossIt'sRacist, I am criticizing only the crazier proponents of Islam here as well as the unfortunate influence they have over many Muslim communities. My comment might be ignorant in a lot of ways as well as hasty to an extent, and I await others pointing that out to a t, but don't get on my case just for telling it as I see it.

Clothing laws have always been based on political power, religion and control. It works for a time then it fails miserably.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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25-08-2016, 09:26 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, but the actual reasons for the bans matter.

If you're fighting against a psychopath, you don't stop to establish the rules for the fight, you go for the kill. And no, I don't mean to conflate Muslims with psychopaths, only Islamism.

I do agree with you that it's very unlikely to achieve its apparent goal, but I still think the mere gesture of it might end up helping a lot.
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25-08-2016, 09:28 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
It doesn't make sense- it's based on people's perceptions and fears.

What if she had gone to the beach wearing a large floppy hat, a chambray shirt and blue jeans, or else smeared sunblock on until she looks like she's made of clay? FFS, my wife has to do that to avoid getting sun burnt in less than 15 minutes. I obviate the problem by not going to the beach. Think Huck Finn's dad- fish belly white! Big Grin
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25-08-2016, 09:35 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
Next we will have to tell the super religious Christian sects that their women can no longer wear their straggly hair to their waists...with those hair lumps on their heads...and those mid-calf denim skirts. Think that baby machine on 19 Kids and Counting...I used to work with a woman who dressed that way because it was required of her as a good Christian woman.

How far to we go with regard to telling someone how they can or can't dress?

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25-08-2016, 09:37 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
Makes me want to go the beach wearing a tunic with only a banana hammock on underneath. "Certainly officer, I'd be happy to remove my tunic."

#sigh
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25-08-2016, 10:36 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(25-08-2016 09:26 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  Yes, but the actual reasons for the bans matter.

If you're fighting against a psychopath, you don't stop to establish the rules for the fight, you go for the kill. And no, I don't mean to conflate Muslims with psychopaths, only Islamism.

I do agree with you that it's very unlikely to achieve its apparent goal, but I still think the mere gesture of it might end up helping a lot.

The reasons mattered to the 13th century church that banned pointed shoes. It was all about sex and power. If it didn't matter they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of banning them.

There's a very long history of this stuff. Jews were made to wear a star of David on their lapel before and during the WW II. They were then tattooed with a number. In in the Middle ages Jews were required to wear a conical hat.

People have migrated all over the world and whenever they end up their traditional costume is regarded as suspect because it represents something odd and unacceptable. And people don't even have to migrate anywhere for this shit to happen. For a time some American Indians tribes weren't allowed to wear their traditional Native garments. They were made to wear shirts, pants and western shoes because they were considered uncivilized and violent.

What's the difference between the tunic the lady on the beach was wearing and this...

[Image: 658e90145d325050d5d6c6002962220c.jpg]

They're both tunics.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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25-08-2016, 10:55 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
I'm missing something here...

In the United States, you can go to the beach wearing whatever you want. Sometimes I find myself on the beach completely unprepared... maybe I'm wearing jeans and a t-shirt or maybe I'm not in the mood to get sunburned on that particular day, so I wear my cover-up.

I thought France was a free country where you can do what you want. It's not like her face was covered and she was acting suspiciously. She was just sitting out on the beach.

(Oh and France, let's get with the program, yes? Get the sand shipped in so your beach goers don't have to sit around on rocks. What's wrong with you people?)
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