French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
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27-08-2016, 12:56 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
I'm still unsure how banning a woman's particular swimwear addresses those issues at all. I think some better alternatives have been posited upthread. Infringing the rights of people who in many cases are citizens seems to be adopting the very illiberalism you decry.
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27-08-2016, 01:12 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2016 01:15 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 10:05 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 12:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  While most Muslims are just another batch of people with some crazy religious ideas that they impose on themselves and do not expect others to follow, the fundamentalists among them are more dangerous than fundamentalists of other "brands" because of a willingness to use violence as a means of attaining their social/religious goals. Extremist Christians and Jews can be violent, but typically are not (at least not for those reasons), and instead use social pressure to attain the conformity of culture they desire.

But even without violence, the power of social pressure to enforce conformity should not be underestimated. We do the same thing in Western countries, when it comes to things like men wearing pants instead of tunics/dresses-- when I was in a live action role-playing group, I made a character who was based on the ancient Greek hoplites, and wore my first tunic (which looked an awful lot like what we in the American South refer to as a "sun dress", except for being only one color) to my absolute delight. It's the most comfortable thing I've ever worn; I could not for the life of me figure out why this wasn't a standard thing for men everywhere! And yet I knew quite well that if I wore it outside the context of the LARP gatherings, I'd be ridiculed or become a social pariah. So really, I didn't have that option, even if no rednecks beat me up for not wearing the "right" clothes for my sex/gender.

We must recognize that for most Muslim women, wearing a hijab is no stranger (or less expected of themselves) than Christian women wearing a bra. Most of them could go without it, freely, but they simply don't want to-- either they like the look or they feel it would be unladylike to do otherwise.

There is absolutely a problem with radical Islamists and their treatment of women, especially their willingness to stoop to violence to enforce their social norms, even after they come to Western (liberalized) nations, but I don't think the "what to do about it" list should include forcing them to give up their bras, so to speak. Seriously-- imagine the discussion if France said that women could no longer wear bras because they're oppressive to women. We'd think they were insane!

What to do about it should more likely follow a pattern of the way we try to handle other types of domestic violence, putting out educational propaganda that tells everyone that they're not required to wear it to be a good Muslim in a Western nation, and ensuring that top-notch programs are in place for women who are afraid of the men in their lives and feel they cannot make other choices.

Izel is quite right; the current method is morally indistinguishable from the problem it purports to "solve", as forcing women to wear or not to wear a clothing item is the same sort of oppression.

Also, I'd rather see more women in headscarves than in bras... I guess that's why I like Audrey. Smile

Yes, what you said.

The interesting thing is that men throughout the world have worn tunics, gowns and kaftans much longer than any kind of pants. Pants (or trousers) merged from tights and pantaloons and they were generally worn under an outer garment. The first trousers that we would recognize today were worn by Beau Brummel in the 1830's during the Regency period so men wearing pants as an outer garment is only about 200 years old.

Kaftans and long, loose tunics are actually much cooler in hot climates. It protects the legs from the hot sun but also when you walk the movement of the tunic fabric circulates the air around your legs, almost like a fan.
If this blog is to be believed men pants have much older history: http://mongolschinaandthesilkroad.blogsp...s.html?m=1

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27-08-2016, 01:15 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
The ban is idiotic, that's what I really believe. But the kind of arguments it brings out of people are so ridiculous that it annoys me to no end.
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27-08-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 11:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  Its the damn religion that the the burkha/burkini represents.

It is symbolic.

Whilst on the surface people may say "hey, its only an item of clothing, its just a normal person who more than likely lives a perfectly peaceful existence and is no way a representative of militant Islam and terrorism"

They would be right.

It goes much deeper than that though, I mentioned some points in my previous post. Islam wants US to conform to THEM, they are not willing to conform fully to OUR ways of western living, how can they when it is written in their bullshit Qur'an how they should live their lifes.

How would you feel going into a food outlet to be told that they don't serve ham or bacon any longer and that it has been replaced by turkey slaughtered and blessed the halal way? On the surface.... Hey it's no big deal, but underneath your own rights have been restricted and sure, you can go elsewhere, but it brings resentment.

How would you feel going and looking for social housing and being told that you will have to wait longer because of a rise in immigrants? Yeah sure, their more vulnerable and of course they should be looked after, but at the cost of yourself and your own family in a time of restricted budgets in pretty much all European countries.

How would you feel if child benefits were paid to islamic families that have much higher birthrates than the 'native' families, who pay little back into the system?

How do you think we would cope if we all went in great numbers and lived in a middle eastern country, with our women not covering themselves up, with our atheist ways and we started trying to bend the will of that country to accomodate us, our beliefs, our food, our culture. Do you think the native people in that country would be as liberal as us and allow that change or do you think they would tell us to conform, not only individually but as a collective.... Confirm to their way of living or for us to fuck off? Then to top it all off some of the loons in our group start killing their people in terrorist attacks?

So I repeat, the clothing is just the tip of the iceberg. I have lived and watched all of my life Islam and its culture creep into everything here, if you havent lived it you will never empathise fully with what I say and this story will always just be about 'the freedom to wear what you want' and you wont EVER think of it as a big deal and alone it isn't.

Its a war of cultures, beliefs and ideologies and the more liberal you are the more you can wave goodbye to everything you know and identify with because Islam is not liberal. It wont concede, it wont give back, it wants its own way, all the time.

Living in the US, I don't know what that has been like in Europe.

But I most certainly would not appreciate being forced to live in a culture that is based on the Quran.

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27-08-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
I made a thread at the start of the year about the rise of Islam here in the UK. Maybe the information within may give scope to what Europe faces.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...legitimate

I'd like to know how people would feel if this was happening in their own country. How you would feel about the rise of a religious ideology (could be any, just so happens to be Islam) that goes against the fabric of the society you live in and how you would feel knowing your offspring would be left with this growing problem?

Again, you may just see this whole story as simply a bad choice, ridiculous, over the top..... but understand what it's based upon.

People at a local level probably having enough and deciding that they no longer wish to see the islamification of the country they grew up and live in.

Sure their choice doesn't solve the problem..... I don't think the problem can be solved witout going to the horrific lengths of ethnic cleansing (something obv I would never advocate). The poison of islam has taken root here and it is growing. How do you stop an oppresive, ungiving ideology that is given free reign to flourish?

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27-08-2016, 07:01 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(25-08-2016 09:12 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  All due respect, this particular clothing ban is nothing like the examples you alluded at. My understanding is, it's in order to counteract the compelling of women to have a specific dress code under the auspices of their particular religion. So it's exactly the opposite. Normally I would be opposed to this kind of thing under any pretext but I have to make an exception where Islam is involved. Looking the other way clearly doesn't work. I wouldn't be surprised if it came one day to banning the religion altogether. It would certainly be better than giving up on civilization, and this ideology happens to be it's biggest threat at this point in history.

It worked with Communism. It should work with Islam. Let's hope it doesn't get there, though.

I don't think having to give up on that hideous style of clothing is the worst thing in the world, considering how much they have to gain from having it banned. Namely, they are finally standing up to the dogma in a way that lets it know it won't tolerate its bullshit like more regressive liberal counterparts from other Western countries might. I think that's a good message to broadcast to the religious maniacs who are looking to dominate everything in sight.

Inb4, #NotAllMuslims, #YouBigot, #It'sGrossIt'sRacist, I am criticizing only the crazier proponents of Islam here as well as the unfortunate influence they have over many Muslim communities. My comment might be ignorant in a lot of ways as well as hasty to an extent, and I await for others to point that out to a t, but don't get on my case just for telling it as I see it.
Would you say the same thing with nuns and Amish women? You cant fight fascism with fascism bud.

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27-08-2016, 07:07 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 02:23 PM)bemore Wrote:  I made a thread at the start of the year about the rise of Islam here in the UK. Maybe the information within may give scope to what Europe faces.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...legitimate

I'd like to know how people would feel if this was happening in their own country. How you would feel about the rise of a religious ideology (could be any, just so happens to be Islam) that goes against the fabric of the society you live in and how you would feel knowing your offspring would be left with this growing problem?

Again, you may just see this whole story as simply a bad choice, ridiculous, over the top..... but understand what it's based upon.

People at a local level probably having enough and deciding that they no longer wish to see the islamification of the country they grew up and live in.

Sure their choice doesn't solve the problem..... I don't think the problem can be solved witout going to the horrific lengths of ethnic cleansing (something obv I would never advocate). The poison of islam has taken root here and it is growing. How do you stop an oppresive, ungiving ideology that is given free reign to flourish?
It seems like you Europeans are getting a taste of your own medicine lol. I don't care what a persons religion is as long as they don't shove it down my throat. I understand that Muslim women are oppressed but if they are moderate and still want to wear the birkini I don't care. Its not effecting me because I'm not Muslim. If they're trying to push their ideology into government then it becomes an issue. So far the only people in this country that have done that is white Anglo Saxon Protestants.

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27-08-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 01:12 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 10:05 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Yes, what you said.

The interesting thing is that men throughout the world have worn tunics, gowns and kaftans much longer than any kind of pants. Pants (or trousers) merged from tights and pantaloons and they were generally worn under an outer garment. The first trousers that we would recognize today were worn by Beau Brummel in the 1830's during the Regency period so men wearing pants as an outer garment is only about 200 years old.

Kaftans and long, loose tunics are actually much cooler in hot climates. It protects the legs from the hot sun but also when you walk the movement of the tunic fabric circulates the air around your legs, almost like a fan.
If this blog is to be believed men pants have much older history: http://mongolschinaandthesilkroad.blogsp...s.html?m=1

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Very interesting, thank you. I'm always learning new things.

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27-08-2016, 11:33 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2016 11:35 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 02:23 PM)bemore Wrote:  The poison of islam has taken root here and it is growing. How do you stop an oppresive, ungiving ideology that is given free reign to flourish?

I would go with education -- making sure that schools impart the precepts of liberal democracy as being more important than anything else.

Of course, that would require the government to behave in strict accordance with those precepts.

We here in the US have seen about 1.7 million Muslim immigrants between the years 1992 and 2012. Granted that we are a more homogeneous destination than Europe (and therefore have, perhaps, a tighter cultural core), and granted that that rate of immigration is much lower than what Europe is currently experiencing, we haven't seen too many problems arising from those immigrants.

This is, I think, in part to a national outlook focused on integration of immigrants, a phenomenon with which we have much experience. Because we generally accept them into our communities without making demands on their conforming immediately to our sociocultural mores, Muslims may feel less defensive, and more willing to accept the precepts of tolerance that we try to impart. It is admittedly a process that is far from perfect, and there are certainly enough bigots fighting a rearguard action against such openness -- but I think avoiding laws aimed (directly or indirectly) at Muslims goes a long ways towards engendering good will.

This is surely an imperfect comparison, given the many differences between the various European cultures and the monolithic American culture, but I think there are good ideas which may be gleaned from our experience, of which applying the law equally across all demographics is perhaps the most important. Imperfect as we are doing that in a racial context, in the religious context, we're quite successful, and I think that shows. We offer opportunity, not oppression.
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28-08-2016, 04:59 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2016 09:52 AM by DLJ.)
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 11:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  It's the damn religion that the the burkha/burkini represents.

Religion or culture?

A culture is simply the combination of individuals' behaviour. Religion is but one factor that influences that behaviour.

If other factors (climate, commerce, poverty, living peacefully, success of the local sports team etc.) are stronger, then the words of an ancient book will have less importance.

Is it the culture that worries you ... or I should say: Is it the (in)ability of dominant culture to absorb the incoming new cultural factors ... or is it the religion?

(27-08-2016 11:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  ...
It goes much deeper than that though, I mentioned some points in my previous post. Islam wants US to conform to THEM, they are not willing to conform fully to OUR ways of western living, how can they when it is written in their bullshit Qur'an how they should live their lives.
...

What's Western though?
It's an amalgamation of all the historic invasions into and colonisations out of Europe that have been happening forever.

England has been absorbing and has been changed by immigration since before recorded time.

Future generations see the changed behaviours as the norm.

How many Northern place names came from the Vikings / Danes; how many Southern names came from Latin / Germanic invaders.

These are now normal. Before the invasions or the mass migrations what was the norm then?

Can you imagine Liverpool without its Irish influence? Can you imagine London without its Jewish and Eastern European influence? It would probably be like, I dunno, Somerset or Shropshire.

How far do you want to turn back the clock?

(27-08-2016 11:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  ...
How would you feel going into a food outlet to be told that they don't serve ham or bacon
...

Fairly obviously, for me, that happens every day.

But even in an officially Islamic country, traders recognise the benefit of catering to an increasingly diverse market.

My local jayagrocer has a large non-Halal section for the Chinese, the Indian the pre-Islam-Malay and Western consumers.

It's a bit expensive but good quality.

(27-08-2016 11:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  ...
How would you feel going and looking for social housing and being told that you will have to wait longer because of a rise in immigrants? Yeah sure, their more vulnerable and of course they should be looked after, but at the cost of yourself and your own family in a time of restricted budgets in pretty much all European countries.

How would you feel if child benefits were paid to islamic families that have much higher birthrates than the 'native' families, who pay little back into the system?

How do you think we would cope if we all went in great numbers and lived in a middle eastern country, with our women not covering themselves up, with our atheist ways and we started trying to bend the will of that country to accomodate us, our beliefs, our food, our culture. Do you think the native people in that country would be as liberal as us and allow that change or do you think they would tell us to conform, not only individually but as a collective.... Confirm to their way of living or for us to fuck off? Then to top it all off some of the loons in our group start killing their people in terrorist attacks?
...

That is what has happened here. And the native population have either accepted the (centuries of) organic change or have resisted through affirmative action such as Bumiputera laws

Wikipedia Wrote:In the 1970s, the Malaysian government implemented policies which The Economist called "racially discriminatory" designed to favour bumiputras (including affirmative action in public education) to create opportunities, and to defuse inter-ethnic tensions following the extended violence against Chinese Malaysians in the 13 May Incident in 1969.[1] These policies have succeeded in creating a significant urban Malay and even a Native Bornean middle class as well. They have been less effective in eradicating poverty among rural communities. Some analysts have noted a backlash of resentment from excluded groups, in particular the sizeable Chinese and Indian Malaysian minorities.

(27-08-2016 11:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  ...
Its a war of cultures, beliefs and ideologies and the more liberal you are the more you can wave goodbye to everything you know and identify with because Islam is not liberal. It wont concede, it wont give back, it wants its own way, all the time.

Not war so much as 'ecological succession' and natural selection. The dominant culture may be bent but not broken.

(27-08-2016 02:23 PM)bemore Wrote:  ...
I'd like to know how people would feel if this was happening in their own country. How you would feel about the rise of a religious ideology (could be any, just so happens to be Islam) that goes against the fabric of the society you live in and how you would feel knowing your offspring would be left with this growing problem?
...

So my point is that your/our offspring will not notice unless they are raised to believe that e.g. the England of the 12th Century or 15th or 19th was in some way superior to the one they are learning to live in and somehow that it's a utopia that is worth resurrecting.

(27-08-2016 11:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  ...
The poison of islam has taken root here and it is growing. How do you stop an oppressive, ungiving ideology that is given free reign to flourish?

You don't give it free reign. But neither do you deny its free expression.

You demonstrate by the way that you live, the superiority of the cultural values that are indeed superior:
Freedom of Expression
Equality under the Law
Traditional English beer, English pizza and English poppadoms!

Remember that culture = the collective behaviour of individuals. To change the culture, one has to change the behaviour of individuals. And that happens through education and financial stability, generation by generation.

(27-08-2016 11:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  ...
I would go with education -- making sure that schools impart the precepts of liberal demoncracy as being more important than anything else.
...

Demoncracy: Rule by demons.

And Obama, of course, is Beelzebub. Laugh out load

(27-08-2016 11:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  ...
Because we generally accept them into our communities without making demands on their conforming immediately to our sociocultural mores, Muslims may feel less defensive, and more willing to accept the precepts of tolerance that we try to impart. It is admittedly a process that is far from perfect, and there are certainly enough bigots fighting a rearguard action against such openness -- but I think avoiding laws aimed (directly or indirectly) at Muslims goes a long ways towards engendering good will.
...

Same in Malaysia. Except for "muslims" read "non-muslims".

There are a handful for Quranic literalists fighting to protect the old ways against the onslaught of modern education and liberal thinking. Some who want Sharia to apply to everyone and not just Muslims.
But there's a reason why these people are in the opposition parties and never get elected.

And the irony of course, is that Islam is itself an invading culture... so I say "old ways" but they're not the oldest ways.

(27-08-2016 11:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  ...
the monolithic American culture, but I think there are good ideas which may be gleaned from our experience, of which applying the law equally across all demographics is perhaps the most important.
...

And I wonder about this. How monolithic is it really?

Texan culture vs. New York or Boston?
Arable vs. pastoral (Cain vs. Abel)?

Law can not be applied equally across all demographics. Call me "ageist" but I don't think that 5-year-olds should be allowed to drive.

Just kidding, I know what you meant.

Meanwhile, I'll just leave this here...

"We're going to have to do god's work because god's not going to."




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