French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
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31-08-2016, 02:17 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 01:59 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(30-08-2016 11:33 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... Syz, I'm... pretty sure this is prejudice. If she's an Australian citizen she's got as much right as you to call herself Aussie. What the fuck is a "genuine Aussie"?

Nope, not at all. It's just an expression of my extreme dislike of confrontational religious intervention in the affairs of our Aussie society. And I have to disagree; there's no way Zanetti can describe herself as a genuine Aussie. If she were she wouldn't be making Islamic religious clothing for Muslims the world over. And neither would she be effectively assisting bigoted Imams into forcing young women into wearing clothes totally inappropriate for Australian conditions—and in a constitutionally secular country.

—From the gist of your comments, I can only assume that you agree with not banning Muslims wearing their religious garb in public? And if so why?

Being a "constitutionally secular country" means one is free to be religious (or not) without government interference. The government stays out of the business of religion unless someone is using that religion to hurt others. It's really that simple.

I don't even begin to understand the logical process that led you to the statement, "there's no way Zanetti can describe herself as a genuine Aussie. If she were she wouldn't be making Islamic religious clothing for Muslims the world over."

Seriously, man, what the fuck is that? Try it this way: "There's no way Jones can describe himself as a genuine American. If he was he wouldn't be making Jewish skull caps for Jews the world over." or "There's no way Li can describe herself as a genuine Chinese. If she was she wouldn't be making flags for countries like the United States."

Et cetera. She is an Aussie because she chooses to live there, and to freely practice her religion, and to make clothing for others who practice that same religion but still want to look pretty.

Has it honestly not occurred to you that some Muslim women like wearing a hijab? That's what she designs, not the oppressive burqas. It is a fashion among Muslim women, based in part on their religion-based ideas about what it means to be a modest woman, and Zanetti is a fashion designer whose designs are popular among women who wear hijabs. No imam is forcing women to wear fashionable hijabs; he would probably object to flashy or beautiful ones, I'd wager.

There's no issue here. We can see their faces. Women are (generally) not forced to wear them, but choose to do so for reasons of their own cultural/religious expectations of modest dress, just as we don't see many Christian women in miniskirts due to the Christian ideas about modesty.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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31-08-2016, 03:15 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 01:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  Er... she's making a clothing line. And anyone is free to buy it, not just Muslims.

Well yes, it is "just" clothing, but its particular significance is that it's symbolic of patriarchal female oppression and injustice and subjugation. Which are entirely at odds with Australia's traditional history of societal freedoms. Numerous Muslim women in Islamic countries have been fined by the state, physically assaulted, or even killed for refusing to wear their veils in public.

Quote:If people were being forced into wearing ... I don't know... formal shirts, would you a. ban formal shirts or b. target the bastards doing the forcing? [...]

You seem to be missing my point. At any rate, formal shirts are not a public expression of an oppressive religion.

Quote:Because I believe in freedom of expression?

So you're happy that if these Muslim women choose not to wear their burqas or whatever in public—as per your claimed freedom of expression—and are assaulted and/or killed by their affronted husbands or brothers, then that's OK with you? You seem to have an ambivalent definition of freedom of expression.

Quote:Has anyone ever told *you* what you can or can't wear?

Yes. We can't wear thongs, singlets or cutoff shorts into hotels, clubs, or casinos. And we have to wear shoes; no bare feet.

Quote:"Why NOT ban Muslims from wearing their religious garb in public?" is that... I mean... to me that's totally backwards. If you can show a reason why you *should*, then maybe I'll agree that it's OK.

As has already been proved, the wearing of Islamic clothing is extremely divisive in what was originally a very cohesive Aussie society. It's deliberately confrontational and creates unnecessary frictions in secure places where one's principal means of identity is paramount. And the latter is causing all sorts of grief for state and federal security services at banks, government offices, post offices, airports, medical centres, police stations, customs etc.

Quote:In case you haven't noticed the French burkini ban was turned over in court.

So....? I live in Australia, and whatever happens in France has no bearing on Australian society or its mores and morals. And in case you haven't noticed [sic], Switzerland, Holland, and Belgium—all democratic EU countries—have banned the burqa.

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31-08-2016, 03:36 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 02:17 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Try it this way: "There's no way Jones can describe himself as a genuine American. If he was he wouldn't be making Jewish skull caps for Jews the world over." or "There's no way Li can describe herself as a genuine Chinese. If she was she wouldn't be making flags for countries like the United States."

Neither the Jewish kippah (skull cap) or Chinese-made foreign flags have ever represented more blatantly the absolute patriarchal oppression of women and girls—as has Islamic dress. We don't generally have Chinese suicide bombers in Australia LOL, nor do Jewish men subjugate their female partners as do Muslim male family.

Quote:Has it honestly not occurred to you that some Muslim women like wearing a hijab?

Nope. That's simply a defensivee claim made by Muslim women in an attempt to justify it and/or because they're simply afraid of seriously offending their menfolk. They wear it because of one thing—fear.

Do you seriously believe that a 12-year-old girl "chooses" to wear a hijab or burqa or whatever voluntarily, or by personal choice? During a 40ºC Aussie summer day when all her mates are wearing tank tops and cut off shorts or bikinis.

Quote:... just as we don't see many Christian women in miniskirts due to the Christian ideas about modesty.

I dunno where you live, but in Australia, Christianity itself has never caused woman to forgo miniskirts because of "modesty". That notion is laughable. Although it may well be the case in a puritanical America?

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31-08-2016, 03:48 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 03:15 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 01:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  Er... she's making a clothing line. And anyone is free to buy it, not just Muslims.

Well yes, it is "just" clothing, but its particular significance is that it's symbolic of patriarchal female oppression and injustice and subjugation. Which are entirely at odds with Australia's traditional history of societal freedoms. Numerous Muslim women in Islamic countries have been fined by the state, physically assaulted, or even killed for refusing to wear their veils in public.
Women are not free to choose their clothing in Islamic states therefore to correct this wrong we will... control their clothing in our allegedly better society?

Quote:You seem to be missing my point. At any rate, formal shirts are not a public expression of an oppressive religion.
That's your view. If you dislike the religion that much, why not ban it totally?

Quote:
Quote:Because I believe in freedom of expression?

So you're happy that if these Muslim women choose not to wear their burqas or whatever in public—as per your claimed freedom of expression—and are assaulted and/or killed by their affronted husbands or brothers, then that's OK with you? You seem to have an ambivalent definition of freedom of expression.
You're putting words in my mouth, I don't appreciate it. I do not think honour killings are morally defensible, and yes I do think that any woman, Muslim or not, should be able to choose how she dresses. How is this even a question?

Quote:Yes. We can't wear thongs, singlets or cutoff shorts into hotels, clubs, or casinos. And we have to wear shoes; no bare feet.
These are private establishments. You are talking about a country-wide ban in public areas.

Quote:As has already been proved, the wearing of Islamic clothing is extremely divisive in what was originally a very cohesive Aussie society. It's deliberately confrontational and creates unnecessary frictions in secure places where one's principal means of identity is paramount. And the latter is causing all sorts of grief for state and federal security services at banks, government offices, post offices, airports, medical centres, police stations, customs etc.
So because a bunch of Aussies have fragile egos your entire society is imploding? Rolleyes ETA: I think if you don't like the way someone else dresses that's *your* problem, not theirs.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-08-2016, 04:50 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 03:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Women are not free to choose their clothing in Islamic states therefore to correct this wrong we will... control their clothing in our allegedly better society?
The burqa ban isn't gender-specific; men aren't allowed to wear them either.

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31-08-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
In some countries like the UK, it is against the law to commit acts of any kind which cause others alarm or distress. If a man approaches a jewellers wearing a motorcycle helmet with the visor down the jeweller would be alarmed. If Muslims read a book which tells then to kills apostates and Muslims are slaughtering tourists on beaches as they did in Tunisia, then it's not an unjustified fear if a person feels threatened if they see someone dressed up in a burkini. It's intimidating to have someone overtly pushing their deferrence to a bloody God while you are practically naked trying to hang loose on a beach. They brought this on themselves and have no qualms about terrifying people in any way they can.
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31-08-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 04:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 03:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Women are not free to choose their clothing in Islamic states therefore to correct this wrong we will... control their clothing in our allegedly better society?
The burqa ban isn't gender-specific; men aren't allowed to wear them either.

That doesn't invalidate the point that those women who would like to wear the burqa/burkini (since that was the original topic of discussion, somehow it's morphed to burqas in general) cannot, if there is a ban. Also the ban affects women way more than men.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-08-2016, 06:18 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 06:15 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  They brought this on themselves and have no qualms about terrifying people in any way they can.

ORLY? So now if I decide to oppress you then I can tell you that "you brought this on yourself" because someone who looks like you / shares your religion committed crimes?

Western democracy ™ - the most wonderful achievement of human political thought, where those who live in such a place can experience *true* freedom. As long as you do what we say.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-08-2016, 07:13 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
Burkas and birkinis are not at all the same thing. The burka is covering a face and preventing recognition of a human. The birkini doesn't cover the face and is irrelevant to a burka discussion.

I thought this thread moved from birkini to burka long ago, since everyone agrees that there is no issue with birkinis.

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31-08-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 06:15 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  In some countries like the UK, it is against the law to commit acts of any kind which cause others alarm or distress. If a man approaches a jewellers wearing a motorcycle helmet with the visor down the jeweller would be alarmed. If Muslims read a book which tells then to kills apostates and Muslims are slaughtering tourists on beaches as they did in Tunisia, then it's not an unjustified fear if a person feels threatened if they see someone dressed up in a burkini. It's intimidating to have someone overtly pushing their deferrence to a bloody God while you are practically naked trying to hang loose on a beach. They brought this on themselves and have no qualms about terrifying people in any way they can.

This book?

"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God."


- 1 Corinthians 11:3-16

If you want to talk about bloody and violent, I might be able to find a few verses on that, too.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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