French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
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31-08-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 06:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 04:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The burqa ban isn't gender-specific; men aren't allowed to wear them either.

That doesn't invalidate the point that those women who would like to wear the burqa/burkini (since that was the original topic of discussion, somehow it's morphed to burqas in general) cannot, if there is a ban. Also the ban affects women way more than men.

Is there actually a birkini ban? Specifying birkinis? Or is the ban only for burkas?

Because a birkini ban would be insane. A burka ban I can see reasons for.

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31-08-2016, 10:49 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 10:19 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 06:15 AM)morondog Wrote:  That doesn't invalidate the point that those women who would like to wear the burqa/burkini (since that was the original topic of discussion, somehow it's morphed to burqas in general) cannot, if there is a ban. Also the ban affects women way more than men.

Is there actually a birkini ban? Specifying birkinis? Or is the ban only for burkas?

Because a birkini ban would be insane. A burka ban I can see reasons for.

That is what the threads were about before they got hijacked and merged. There was a burkini ban that was just now overturned by the french court.

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31-08-2016, 11:12 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
Birkini? So, the French now have a minimum skin allotment for the beach?

Are they also going to ban wearing jeans and a hoody to the beach? That covers just as much skin...

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31-08-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 11:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Birkini? So, the French now have a minimum skin allotment for the beach?

Are they also going to ban wearing jeans and a hoody to the beach? That covers just as much skin...

I'm surprised the French don't ban all clothing from their beaches. Horny frogs.

#sigh
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31-08-2016, 11:42 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 10:49 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 10:19 AM)Dom Wrote:  Is there actually a birkini ban? Specifying birkinis? Or is the ban only for burkas?

Because a birkini ban would be insane. A burka ban I can see reasons for.

That is what the threads were about before they got hijacked and merged. There was a burkini ban that was just now overturned by the french court.

Ok, this thread makes no sense to me and now I know why. Thanks for pointing it out, and thanks for mentioning that the burkini ban got overturned.

Equating a burkini to a burka makes zero sense. I have been struggling with this throughout the thread. Undecided

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31-08-2016, 01:22 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2016 01:30 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 03:15 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Well yes, it is "just" clothing, but its particular significance is that it's symbolic of patriarchal female oppression and injustice and subjugation. Which are entirely at odds with Australia's traditional history of societal freedoms. Numerous Muslim women in Islamic countries have been fined by the state, physically assaulted, or even killed for refusing to wear their veils in public.

And how, exactly, is it better that the French government, be it state or local levels, engage in criminally prosecuting these same women for their choice of clothing?

From my standpoint, it looks like you want to do exactly the same thing as those Muslim governments, only with a different fashion-statement in mind.

If these women embrace their oppression, no amount of state "guidance" will change that. What it will do is tell a segment of the population that they aren't welcome.

Good luck integrating them into your society at that point.

(31-08-2016 03:15 AM)SYZ Wrote:  So you're happy that if these Muslim women choose not to wear their burqas or whatever in public—as per your claimed freedom of expression—and are assaulted and/or killed by their affronted husbands or brothers, then that's OK with you? You seem to have an ambivalent definition of freedom of expression.

Nonsense. Rejecting restrictive laws about dress does not mean supporting Muslim customs, including assault and even murder. It's entirely possible to both reject laws restricting dress, and support laws banning domestic abuse. Indeed, I would myself support laws that increased penalties for religiously-based violence as a form of hate-crime.

This is an excluded-middle fallacy of startling proportions. I find it hard to believe that my objection here didn't occur to you before you posted that.
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31-08-2016, 05:09 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
National Geographic did a piece where they make mention this brouhaha. Interesting pics.

See How Swimsuits Evolved From Wool Dresses to Bikinis
Some French officials don’t want women to wear burkinis. But how did today’s tiny bathing suits become the standard?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/...picks=true

"Many people thought the bikini was inappropriate at first. And as Alissa J. Rubin points out in the New York Times, some beaches in Catholic countries like Italy had rules against the itsy-bitsy suits.

Sound familiar? It should. Rubin’s article compares the bikini bans in Italy to a recent incident in which police in Nice, France, forced a woman to remove part of her burkini.

“[I’m] completely flabbergasted that society has gotten to the point that we’re forcing women to remove pieces of clothing in order to stay in touch with what we consider to be proper attire,” Clemente says.”

Did you know there used to be bathing cops at US beaches? Here’s one in action.

[Image: vintagebathingsuits-6.jpg]
A 1922 photo shows Bill Norton, the bathing beach “cop”, using a tape measure to determine the distance between a woman’s knee and the bottom of her bathing suit. Apparently Bill Norton likes to “touch” the exposed part. He probably is kneeling down so his woody doesn’t show. Big Grin

[Image: vintagebathingsuits-12.jpg]
Woman in bathing suit, c.1922.

This last one would have had issues on French beaches recently.

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31-08-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
I guess I've had my fair say about the proposed buqini and/or burqa banning itself in various countries, and I take on board points made by the others here about its pros and cons, or ethics.

For the purpose of the debate, I personally regard all Islamic female clothing (burqa, niqab, hijab, chador or dupatta) as symbolic of a patriarchal, repressive, brutal religion that subjugates women and girls and breaches all our 21st century norms of personal freedom of choice. And I consider it to be a lie when any Muslim woman denies absolutely that there's an element of fear involved—even if it's an ancestral, "hard-wired" memory. Bearing in mind that females in Islamic countries are still today being jailed or stoned to death for being raped(!), driving cars, drinking alcohol, socialising singly with a male other than their husband, becoming pregnant out of wedlock, and of course not wearing their veils in public.

I'm also a bit surprised that so many alleged atheists on TTA could be seen to be supporting the Dark Ages tenets of Islam and its caliphs by indirectly defending its female dress codes—even in non-Muslim, secular countries. And not forgetting that Muslims worship an imaginary mythical god, Allah, and his paedophiliac prophet Muhammad.

Quite frankly—IMHO—of all the current bizarre religions practised globally, the one that should be totally banned (in secular Western countries at least) is Islam—which is long outdated, oppressive, socially confrontational, bellicose, singularly paternalistic, and discriminatory.

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01-09-2016, 12:41 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 08:32 PM)SYZ Wrote:  And I consider it to be a lie when any Muslim woman denies absolutely that there's an element of fear involved—even if it's an ancestral, "hard-wired" memory.

Unless you're a Muslim woman, this consideration of yours is just that -- your own little opinion. If I want to know what Muslim women think, I'll ask ... wait for it ... Muslim women. This idea of yours that you, a white male Australian, can speak for them, bespeaks exactly the sort of attitude you claim to be against.

(31-08-2016 08:32 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm also a bit surprised that so many alleged atheists on TTA could be seen to be supporting the Dark Ages tenets of Islam and its caliphs by indirectly defending its female dress codes—even in non-Muslim, secular countries. And not forgetting that Muslims worship an imaginary mythical god, Allah, and his paedophiliac prophet Muhammad.

That's your incorrect interpretation. Only an idiot would think that those of us arguing against the government of a nation promulgating dress-codes would be speaking in support of Islam. It has been made plain to you several times already (to your obvious incomprehension) that it is not Islam being defended, but rather, the principles of liberty.

Whether you cannot or simply will not see that, the fact that you misrepresent those who disagree with you in this fashion says a lot about you.

(31-08-2016 08:32 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Quite frankly—IMHO—of all the current bizarre religions practised globally, the one that should be totally banned (in secular Western countries at least) is Islam—which is long outdated, oppressive, socially confrontational, bellicose, singularly paternalistic, and discriminatory.

Yes, because thought and belief can be legislated.

Good to know that America doesn't have a monopoly on short-sighted, thoughtless Internet posters, though.
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01-09-2016, 12:41 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(31-08-2016 08:32 PM)SYZ Wrote:  For the purpose of the debate, I personally regard all Islamic female clothing (burqa, niqab, hijab, chador or dupatta) as symbolic of a patriarchal, repressive, brutal religion that subjugates women and girls and breaches all our 21st century norms of personal freedom of choice. And I consider it to be a lie when any Muslim woman denies absolutely that there's an element of fear involved—even if it's an ancestral, "hard-wired" memory. Bearing in mind that females in Islamic countries are still today being jailed or stoned to death for being raped(!), driving cars, drinking alcohol, socialising singly with a male other than their husband, becoming pregnant out of wedlock, and of course not wearing their veils in public.
If you do not believe the words that come out of their mouths, you are saying that you know better than them how they feel. If you say that they must dress according to your rules, you are saying that you know better than them how they should dress. It's *as* patriarchal and bullshit as any Islamic person attempting to enforce those rules.

Quote:I'm also a bit surprised that so many alleged atheists on TTA could be seen to be supporting the Dark Ages tenets of Islam and its caliphs by indirectly defending its female dress codes—even in non-Muslim, secular countries. And not forgetting that Muslims worship an imaginary mythical god, Allah, and his paedophiliac prophet Muhammad.
You are really reaching amigo. I do like you most of the time, but this is the second time you've accused me of being some kind of closet Muslim apologist. From No true Aussie to No True Atheist? Please learn that some people can disagree with you without being on the side of the Enemy.

Quote:Quite frankly—IMHO—of all the current bizarre religions practised globally, the one that should be totally banned (in secular Western countries at least) is Islam—which is long outdated, oppressive, socially confrontational, bellicose, singularly paternalistic, and discriminatory.
Well hey, that's fair Smile Let's call in the thought police. Atheism until recently was viewed with extreme suspicion pretty much globally. And you like the idea of banning Islam yet I'm sure you don't like the fact that in some Islamic countries atheism is a criminal offence (in some cases punishable by death)? You can't see the symmetry?

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