French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
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26-08-2016, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2016 02:43 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Frances Top Administrative Court Overturns Burkini Ban
Something to think about here in America but it can be applied to France as well.

"Ill will toward Muslim immigrants because of their dress, and their unwillingness to assimilate is often exacerbated by religious conflict. Centuries of tension between Christians and Muslims have found their way into United States cities and verbal attacks have often led to mob violence. For example, earlier this year Christians vandalized a mosque in Rhode Island, while a knife-wielding man made threatening comments to a Muslim woman at a car wash in Chino Hills, California.

Anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim sentiments since 2001 have produced groups such as the Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), also known as the American Freedom Defense Initiative, which fights foreign influences and promote “traditional American ideals.” SIOA members have earned the nickname, “Know-Nothings," because their standard reply to questions about their procedures and activities is, "I know nothing about it."

In the Questions for Admittance to the Tea Party (2005), inductees committed to “…elect to all offices of Honor, Profit, or Trust, no one but native born citizens of America, of this Country to the exclusion of all Foreigners, and to all Muslims, whether they be of native or Foreign Birth, regardless of all party affiliations." This commitment has helped elect Republican Party governors in many States including Arizona and Oklahoma and placed Trump on a presidential ticket in 2016.”

In the above I changed the immigrants from Irish Catholics to Muslims. Nothing much changes. Undecided

Religious Conflict and Discrimination

Ill will toward Irish immigrants because of their poor living conditions, and their willingness to work for low wages was often exacerbated by religious conflict. Centuries of tension between Protestants and Catholics found their way into United States cities and verbal attacks often led to mob violence. For example, Protestants burned down St. Mary’s Catholic Church in New York City in 1831, while in 1844, riots in Philadelphia left thirteen dead.

Anti-immigrant and anti-Catholic sentiments in the 1840s produced groups such as the nativist American Party, which fought foreign influences and promoted "traditional American ideals." American Party members earned the nickname, "Know-Nothings," because their standard reply to questions about their procedures and activities was, "I know nothing about it."

In the Questions for Admittance to the American Party (1854), inductees committed to "…elect to all offices of Honor, Profit, or Trust, no one but native born citizens of America, of this Country to the exclusion of all Foreigners, and to all Roman Catholics, whether they be of native or Foreign Birth, regardless of all party predilections whatever." This commitment helped elect American Party governors in Massachusetts and Delaware and placed Millard Fillmore on a presidential ticket in 1856.
https://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroomma...rish5.html

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-08-2016, 02:51 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
Liberals, as usual, can't criticize something related to the clash of Islam with modernity without resorting to fallacious reasoning and melodramatic hyperbolizing.

It's why I'm loath to call myself one. It's also why I agree with the burka ban, on principle. I'd even agree to a ban of the religion, as I alluded at earlier, if only to annoy the people who would be complaining about it.
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26-08-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(26-08-2016 02:51 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  ..... fallacious reasoning and melodramatic hyperbolizing.

[Image: man-1.jpg]

#sigh
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26-08-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: Frances Top Administrative Court Overturns Burkini Ban
(26-08-2016 11:24 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Forcing someone not to wear clothing that makes them comfortable in a beach setting is as bad as forcing all women to wear the thing. These laws were a definite reaction to the recent attack on Nice, punishing innocent people for the act of a lone terrorist.
Let alone adding fuel to the growing fire of racial hatred of Arabs and Muslims
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26-08-2016, 03:29 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(25-08-2016 10:59 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  It's about the fact that Muslim women are generally not free in any relevant meaning of the word to wear what they want. They are coerced by their communities to dress in a certain way. That is what this law is preventing. To confuse that with something like the plight of the Jews under antisemitic laws is to completely miss the point.
This may have to be a drive-by post, since I'm reasonably sure I'm going to catch a hell of a lot of return fire.

So, I wanted to know something about Islam as it is viewed and practiced by its adherents. I decided to actually talk to one of them, rather than to one of you, on the hypothesis that I would be closer to the source. I therefore signed up on a Sunni (conservative Muslim) forum, listing my religion as Atheist. Imagine my surprise when a lot of what I was told there conflicted with what was being said here.

The following is from a thread there, that touches on the subject of the post I cite above. The author is an American former atheist, who converted to Islam. I fully expect to be told by someone here that she doesn't know how Islam works, or that she's so oppressed that she doesn't know she's oppressed, or some such.

Quote::bism:<b> (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)</b><br />
<br />
[quote name=&quot;jabeady&quot; post=2923269]After reading this, I think I now understand Muslim women who complain about all the non-Muslims who want to liberate them.
<br />
<br />
It's actually more simple than that. For example, take this thread as an example. If someone here or elsewhere tells you you're an atheist because you're mentally ill or your atheism means you're mentally deficient, I think you'd want to pull your hair off at the roots out of frustration because you know what people are doing is projecting their own acquired ridiculous biases onto you. Do you like or even accept people telling you you don't know your own mind? Nope.<br />
<br />
In that same way, I as a Muslim woman 100% know my mind and feel frustrated when I am told that I don't know my mind and am &quot;not liberated.&quot; I mean, come on! I am a product of Western culture. I was raised in a secularized household. I went to the best law school in my state, and yes, one of the top 50 in all of the United States, and was one of the best students graduating with distinction in my high school from a magnet program and graduated a private liberal arts college with magna cum laude. I have been a liberal in political orientation my entire life. Also, I have been a staunch feminist almost my entire life. I can honestly wasn't socially conditioned or even psychologically conditioned to believe that I have to do anything, believe anything, nor was I indoctrinated into a religion. <br />
<br />
My journey to Islam happened not because I was looking for a religion but because despite my atheism, I had a love affair with history and anthropology and communication, and therefore loved researching religions in my own time and never thought I'd ever adopt a religion. However, despite what I had thought or believed about myself, I found Islam very beautiful and was very, very, very attracted to the beautiful spirit therein, and I slowly but surely could not deny my attraction. Eventually, the matter was simply that my heart changed and my mind changed, and therefore I no longer remained an atheist. <br />
<br />
Any person telling me I don't know my mind is in my mind akin to trying to pat me on the head with the &quot;poor you&quot; tone which I find frankly find frustrating and condescending to the point of where I don't know whether to laugh or cry. How can I be more liberated than I am as an American woman who just happened to make the well-informed choice to become Muslim because I just happened to fall in love with Islam? This myth, stereotype, and hare-brained view that I need liberating as a Muslim woman needs to die, like seriously. I <i>know</i> my mind.[/quote]

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26-08-2016, 03:41 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
Like, seriously, an American ex-atheist muslim privileged woman is the same as an opressed immigrant coming from the middle east to Europe, forced to live in a cloth bag all her life.

Like, seriously.
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26-08-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(26-08-2016 03:41 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  Like, seriously, an American ex-atheist muslim privileged woman is the same as an opressed immigrant coming from the middle east to Europe, forced to live in a cloth bag all her life.

Like, seriously.

I don't think it's the same thing, but I can really appreciate what that writer is saying. The burka ban would affect her too if she were in that environment.

Rather than focus so much energy on banning religious attire or displays of religiousness in public spaces, how about improving avenues for escape so that leaving a fundamentalist religion is a tenable option?
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26-08-2016, 04:05 PM
RE: Frances Top Administrative Court Overturns Burkini Ban
Clap “fundamental freedoms” such as the “freedom to come and go, the freedom of conscience and personal liberty.” Clap

Fear or hate; both end up being the same thing.

A fucking waste of time. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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26-08-2016, 04:43 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
(26-08-2016 03:45 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 03:41 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  Like, seriously, an American ex-atheist muslim privileged woman is the same as an opressed immigrant coming from the middle east to Europe, forced to live in a cloth bag all her life.

Like, seriously.

I don't think it's the same thing, but I can really appreciate what that writer is saying. The burka ban would affect her too if she were in that environment.

Rather than focus so much energy on banning religious attire or displays of religiousness in public spaces, how about improving avenues for escape so that leaving a fundamentalist religion is a tenable option?

Yes. Education and critical thinking is the key to freedom from fundamentalist religions, not banning clothing.

Many women who live in more moderate Muslim countries take great pride in the beautiful fabrics they wear on their heads. Some of it quite pretty. A small part of me thinks some women are wearing head coverings for their beauty and style rather than for religious reasons.

[Image: hijab1.jpg]


[Image: kelly_audrey_2.jpg]

Oops, did I just post a picture of Audrey Hepburn wearing a scarf around her head. Silly me. Rolleyes

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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26-08-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: This just doesn't make sense to me.
Yes, Audrey Hepburn wearing a scarf = modern day Muslim woman wearing a burka

Thumbsup

Facepalm
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