French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
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27-08-2016, 08:49 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 07:28 AM)Dom Wrote:  That thing on the beach is just crazy.

Why can't people just apply common sense? Why not have a law about covering one's face in places where facial recognition matters to law enforcement?

The whole thing is not about Islam or Muslims or anything - it's about millions of surveillance cameras in stores being rendered pointless.

And it's about evolution - yes it is. "Darwin was particularly interested in the functions facial expression as evolutionarily important for survival. He looked at the functions of facial expression in terms of the utility of expression in the life on the animal and in terms of specific expressions in species. Darwin deduced that animals were communicating feelings of different emotional states with specific facial expressions. He further concluded that this communication was important for the survival of animals in group-dwelling species; the skill to effectively communicate or interpret another animal’s feelings and behaviors would be a principal trait in naturally fit species."

Any regulation beyond keeping the face recognizable under normal circumstances is just crazy.

Your post reminded me of how the “buff” here in the Keys has become de rigueur. Almost every backcountry fishing guide uses it and more and more recreational boaters do too, including me.

[Image: 7d1b153c478eb39834e70ca065574c98.jpg]

I have noticed that when I have it on I tend to feel more, how can I put this, free from rules and regulations. It shouldn’t make any difference for ID reasons (the call letters are plastered on the side of the vessel) but as an example of how this applies to human behavior a boat captain is responsible for any damage caused by their boat’s wake. Blowing past kayakers and potentially swamping them is bad form and dangerous but I see more of this behavior perpetrated by folks who use the buff than by those who don’t (anecdotal I know).

Just an observation.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-08-2016, 09:10 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
I can sort of go along with banning headwear that completely obscures the face in certain instances. But then, do we outlaw ski masks in the winter or full shield motorcycle helmets...will we require people to not wear scarves over their faces when its 20 below and the snow is blowing in every direction? What about not being able to walk into a bank with great big sunglasses and a hat? What about wigs of a color other than the natural hair color? Where do the restrictions end as far as what someone can or can't do with regard to their appearance? No more plastic surgery? A person could be having plastic surgery in an attempt to escape recognition.

How can we go about banning the religious wear of one without banning religiously dictated wear for all. Priests can not longer wear their various garb...no habits for nuns any more. No yarmulkes for Orthodox Jews.

If we are going to start dictating what clothing can or cannot be worn by people of certain belief systems where do we stop? No crosses on necklaces, no Stars of David?

This seems to a slippery slope leading to a world of Stepford People who all look the same, dress the same...and then how do we tell people apart?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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27-08-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
When the time comes that those people are forced to wear religious garments by their own religious communities we're going to think about banning those as well, what do you say?

In those other instances, no one is making you change your appearance. That is the crucial difference here.
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27-08-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 08:49 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 07:28 AM)Dom Wrote:  That thing on the beach is just crazy.

Why can't people just apply common sense? Why not have a law about covering one's face in places where facial recognition matters to law enforcement?

The whole thing is not about Islam or Muslims or anything - it's about millions of surveillance cameras in stores being rendered pointless.

And it's about evolution - yes it is. "Darwin was particularly interested in the functions facial expression as evolutionarily important for survival. He looked at the functions of facial expression in terms of the utility of expression in the life on the animal and in terms of specific expressions in species. Darwin deduced that animals were communicating feelings of different emotional states with specific facial expressions. He further concluded that this communication was important for the survival of animals in group-dwelling species; the skill to effectively communicate or interpret another animal’s feelings and behaviors would be a principal trait in naturally fit species."

Any regulation beyond keeping the face recognizable under normal circumstances is just crazy.

Your post reminded me of how the “buff” here in the Keys has become de rigueur. Almost every backcountry fishing guide uses it and more and more recreational boaters do too, including me.

[Image: 7d1b153c478eb39834e70ca065574c98.jpg]

I have noticed that when I have it on I tend to feel more, how can I put this, free from rules and regulations. It shouldn’t make any difference for ID reasons (the call letters are plastered on the side of the vessel) but as an example of how this applies to human behavior a boat captain is responsible for any damage caused by their boat’s wake. Blowing past kayakers and potentially swamping them is bad form and dangerous but I see more of this behavior perpetrated by folks who use the buff than by those who don’t (anecdotal I know).

Just an observation.

Thing is, you wouldn't walk into a bank like that. That's what I mean by saying that I wish people would just apply common sense here instead of being distracted by race or religion.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-08-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 09:22 AM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  When the time comes that those people are forced to wear religious garments by their own religious communities we're going to think about banning those as well, what do you say?

In those other instances, no one is making you change your appearance. That is the crucial difference here.

If you're going to try and forcefully stop people from wearing religious wear it's going to backfire. It may be what you want but that doesn't mean it's going to work. Education and time will change it. In the meantime go after the far right religious nuts not the middle of the road women who are minding their own business at the beach watching their children play in the water.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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27-08-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
As for the pictures in the OP...every beach shop I have ever been in sells the same type of tunic they are making the woman remove. Granted they may be tie-dyed or have some witty (to someone) saying on them but you see them on every beach.

Group of six people go to the beach...every one of them will be affected differently by the sun and heat and therefore you will see those who can stay out all day in a bikini and be fine and those who after five minutes are already getting crispy.

What that woman is wearing is harmful to no one.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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27-08-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 09:44 AM)Anjele Wrote:  As for the pictures in the OP...every beach shop I have ever been in sells the same type of tunic they are making the woman remove. Granted they may be tie-dyed or have some witty (to someone) saying on them but you see them on every beach.

Group of six people go to the beach...every one of them will be affected differently by the sun and heat and therefore you will see those who can stay out all day in a bikini and be fine and those who after five minutes are already getting crispy.

What that woman is wearing is harmful to no one.

That beach thing is so fucking far out there, it isn't even worthy of discussion. It's ridiculous and totally not what a burka regulation would be about.

Maybe banks and stores with surveillance systems should have signs on the door:

No shoes, no shirt, no service.
The wearing of ski masks and burkas is prohibited.

Yep, the ski mask one looks totally superfluous, doesn't it? Because it is COMMON SENSE not to cover up your face in such environments.

Gods and race have nothing to do with it.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-08-2016, 09:54 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
If you can’t see the difference then you’re not trying. Angry

[Image: 70bf6ab7e5c7add1d4fa79da1d6bce28.jpg]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-08-2016, 10:05 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 12:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  While most Muslims are just another batch of people with some crazy religious ideas that they impose on themselves and do not expect others to follow, the fundamentalists among them are more dangerous than fundamentalists of other "brands" because of a willingness to use violence as a means of attaining their social/religious goals. Extremist Christians and Jews can be violent, but typically are not (at least not for those reasons), and instead use social pressure to attain the conformity of culture they desire.

But even without violence, the power of social pressure to enforce conformity should not be underestimated. We do the same thing in Western countries, when it comes to things like men wearing pants instead of tunics/dresses-- when I was in a live action role-playing group, I made a character who was based on the ancient Greek hoplites, and wore my first tunic (which looked an awful lot like what we in the American South refer to as a "sun dress", except for being only one color) to my absolute delight. It's the most comfortable thing I've ever worn; I could not for the life of me figure out why this wasn't a standard thing for men everywhere! And yet I knew quite well that if I wore it outside the context of the LARP gatherings, I'd be ridiculed or become a social pariah. So really, I didn't have that option, even if no rednecks beat me up for not wearing the "right" clothes for my sex/gender.

We must recognize that for most Muslim women, wearing a hijab is no stranger (or less expected of themselves) than Christian women wearing a bra. Most of them could go without it, freely, but they simply don't want to-- either they like the look or they feel it would be unladylike to do otherwise.

There is absolutely a problem with radical Islamists and their treatment of women, especially their willingness to stoop to violence to enforce their social norms, even after they come to Western (liberalized) nations, but I don't think the "what to do about it" list should include forcing them to give up their bras, so to speak. Seriously-- imagine the discussion if France said that women could no longer wear bras because they're oppressive to women. We'd think they were insane!

What to do about it should more likely follow a pattern of the way we try to handle other types of domestic violence, putting out educational propaganda that tells everyone that they're not required to wear it to be a good Muslim in a Western nation, and ensuring that top-notch programs are in place for women who are afraid of the men in their lives and feel they cannot make other choices.

Izel is quite right; the current method is morally indistinguishable from the problem it purports to "solve", as forcing women to wear or not to wear a clothing item is the same sort of oppression.

Also, I'd rather see more women in headscarves than in bras... I guess that's why I like Audrey. Smile

Yes, what you said.

The interesting thing is that men throughout the world have worn tunics, gowns and kaftans much longer than any kind of pants. Pants (or trousers) merged from tights and pantaloons and they were generally worn under an outer garment. The first trousers that we would recognize today were worn by Beau Brummel in the 1830's during the Regency period so men wearing pants as an outer garment is only about 200 years old.

Kaftans and long, loose tunics are actually much cooler in hot climates. It protects the legs from the hot sun but also when you walk the movement of the tunic fabric circulates the air around your legs, almost like a fan.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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27-08-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: French Birkini (Dance's and Revs' threads merged)
(27-08-2016 09:54 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  If you can’t see the difference then you’re not trying. Angry

[Image: 70bf6ab7e5c7add1d4fa79da1d6bce28.jpg]

They've all got faces. I don't care what they wear at all, long as there is a face in environments where facial recognition matters.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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