Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
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26-06-2012, 09:49 PM
Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
A few of the prophecies she cited are 1 Kings 13:2 and 2 Kings 23:15-18 (about Josiah), Jeremiah 31:38-40 (the construction of the 9 suburbs of Jeruselm apparently fulfilled in 1948) and Isaiah 44:28, 45:1, 45:13 (about the accomplishments of Cyrus "the conquerer")

I already tried to talk about the vagueness of prophecies and hindsight bias. She responded with a bunch of "No, the prophecies are totally detailed enough to prove them"

I am not really good with spoken words nor am I an eloquent debater. I'd really appreciate any advice or talking points, thanks.
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26-06-2012, 10:05 PM
Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
Please help, I'm not good with spoken words nor am I an eloquent debater.

I tried to explain to her about the vagueness of the prophecies in the bible. Then I tried to tell her about hindsight bias but she stone walled me and I had a bad time explaining the level of detail that would be needed to actually prove a prophecy of that nature. I can provide any of the verses she cited if anyone asks for them.

Any advice or talking points would be appreciated, thanks.
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26-06-2012, 10:23 PM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2012 10:27 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(26-06-2012 10:05 PM)That One Guy Wrote:  Please help, I'm not good with spoken words nor am I an eloquent debater.

I tried to explain to her about the vagueness of the prophecies in the bible. Then I tried to tell her about hindsight bias but she stone walled me and I had a bad time explaining the level of detail that would be needed to actually prove a prophecy of that nature. I can provide any of the verses she cited if anyone asks for them.

Any advice or talking points would be appreciated, thanks.

You could refer her to prophecies in the bible that clearly haven't come true, such as Isaiah 13:19-22 which predicts that Babylon will be leveled "like Sodom and Gomorrah" and will never again be inhabited by humans. The same prediction is made of Damascus in Isaiah 17:1. Your friend could argue that it hasn't happened yet, although that's not a *reasonable* doubt as it's been 3000 years already and most Christians think that Jesus is returning soon. If prophesy's purpose is to prove the bible, it isn't serving that purpose while it is unfulfilled and shows no sign of it.

I might also point out a passage in Micah 5:2-6 that is supposedly a messiah prophesy according to Matthew. Verse 2 is quoted out of context there and fails to mention that the part about the messiah being a warlord who will conquer the Assyrians didn't come true. Why the Assyrians? Because the Israelites were captive to them at the time, just as they were captives of the Babylonians at the time of Isaiah's writing. Every time they were enslaved by a new culture, predictions were made about God overcoming that culture. Instead, they were freed by the Maccabees through completely natural means.

Finally, if eloquence is the real problem, just quote somebody who is more eloquent. I absolutely love how Sam Harris addressed the topic of biblical prophecy...

Sam Harris says in Letter to a Christian Nation, “…just imagine how breathtakingly specific a work of prophecy would be, if it were actually the product of omniscience. If the Bible were such a book, it would make perfectly accurate predictions about human events. You would expect it to contain a passage such as ‘In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers—the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus—and this system shall be called the Internet.’ The Bible contains nothing like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century. This should trouble you.”

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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26-06-2012, 10:27 PM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(26-06-2012 10:05 PM)That One Guy Wrote:  Please help, I'm not good with spoken words nor am I an eloquent debater.

I tried to explain to her about the vagueness of the prophecies in the bible. Then I tried to tell her about hindsight bias but she stone walled me and I had a bad time explaining the level of detail that would be needed to actually prove a prophecy of that nature. I can provide any of the verses she cited if anyone asks for them.

Any advice or talking points would be appreciated, thanks.
Most of the bible 'prophecies' that are in the bible were written after they have occurred. The NT writers plagiarized the OT for prophecies. It sounds like to me no matter what evidence you 'show your friend', her mind is made up.

If she has time, ask her to read http://articles.exchristian.net/2008/03/...#CHAPTER13 which outlines it (in a funny way)
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26-06-2012, 10:40 PM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
You guys don't know how much I appreciate this.
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26-06-2012, 11:26 PM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(26-06-2012 10:40 PM)That One Guy Wrote:  You guys don't know how much I appreciate this.
Good luck!
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27-06-2012, 12:54 AM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
I merged your two posts. Didn't realize they said two different things at first.

As for my response?

Self

Fulfilling

Prophecy



Using my divine powers, I predict that a forum poster with a name that is colored purple, green, or rainbow will respond to your thread with a humorous tale of a donkey and offer forth a wheel of cheese.

If this prophecy comes to pass, it can only mean that my posts are divinely inspired and are the word of God. Amen.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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27-06-2012, 02:20 AM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2012 02:48 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
If you care to get nerdly about it, you could point out that a prophet actually is not originally, in Hebrew culture a "fortune teller", but a "mouthpiece".. someone who "told truth to power".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet . At the time the actual prophets were alive, they did not think of themselves as "fortune tellers", but sent by their god to speak for him TO THE PEOPLE OF THAT DAY .. NOT the people of the future. (All that crap got stuck on later). A "prophecy" is not a message about a future event. It was a message for THAT time, to those people. The "telling the future" thingy, (Madame Zelda and her crystal ball), is as much Hollywood as it is anything. It also had Greek roots, in the "Oracles", (as at Delphi .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia ).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-06-2012, 02:41 AM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
Well done buckyball!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postdiction

Some more weapons for the battle!

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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27-06-2012, 03:02 AM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
You can explain the vagueness of prophecies and mention self-fulfilling prophecies. Mention the fact that anyone can make a prediction and it's bound to come true in some way somehow.

However, sometimes, after all the arguing, the only solution is... well, I'll let Snoop Dogg explain.



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