Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
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27-06-2012, 04:58 AM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2012 05:03 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(26-06-2012 10:40 PM)That One Guy Wrote:  You guys don't know how much I appreciate this.
This may help if they start on about Jesus:

Christians often claim the Old Testament prophesied details of Jesus’ birth, his missionary zeal, his miracles, his preaching, his betrayal by a friend, his death, his resurrection and ascension, and many other aspects of his biography. In fact, Christians often claim Jesus must have been the messiah because he makes so many of these prophecies seem to come true. All Hebrew scholars today deny this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus). I think that they are right, and Christians are wrong. Yeshua/Jesus was not the messiah predicted in the Old Testament for the following reasons.


Firstly, the New Testament authors crafted theirJesus story to fit the messiah tradition, and what is more, there are numerous instances where they had a flawed understanding of scripture, or else deliberately changed its meaning, then claimed Jesus was fulfilling their incorrect interpretation. Jesus’ genealogies (both of them), his birth in Bethlehem, his birth to a virgin mother, and his escape from Egypt are examples.


Secondly, the Old Testament writings that are said to foretell the coming of Jesus are very nonspecific and, therefore,
cannot really be said to be predicting Jesus.


Thirdly, it is undeniable that the Jews, the very people whose ancestors wrote the Old Testament, rejected Yeshua as their
messiah. The Jews of the first century knew Yeshua. He had hardly any contact with Gentiles. They were in a far better position to determine his status in the light of their own scriptures than anyone has ever been since. When Yeshua failed to liberate them from the Romans, they knew he wasn’t their messiah. Why should Christians today presume to know better than Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries?
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27-06-2012, 05:59 AM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
I would say tell him, c-ya laterz! But you said "she" and I go, "a-ha!" So we know what's really going on... Tongue

I got a solution: find yerself a nice atheist girl. Thumbsup

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27-06-2012, 07:00 AM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2012 07:07 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(27-06-2012 04:58 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Christians often claim the Old Testament prophesied details of Jesus’ birth, his missionary zeal, his miracles, his preaching, his betrayal by a friend, his death, his resurrection and ascension, and many other aspects of his biography. In fact, Christians often claim Jesus must have been the messiah because he makes so many of these prophecies seem to come true. All Hebrew scholars today deny this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus). I think that they are right, and Christians are wrong. Yeshua/Jesus was not the messiah predicted in the Old Testament for the following reasons.


Firstly, the New Testament authors crafted theirJesus story to fit the messiah tradition, and what is more, there are numerous instances where they had a flawed understanding of scripture, or else deliberately changed its meaning, then claimed Jesus was fulfilling their incorrect interpretation. Jesus’ genealogies (both of them), his birth in Bethlehem, his birth to a virgin mother, and his escape from Egypt are examples.


A couple footnotes about two of these. First.. the geneology. Matthew spends the entire first chapter going through a long convoluted exposition of how Yehsua ben Josef was related to King David, thus fulfilled the "prophesy" of the Messiah belonging to the Davidic house. Then at the very end of the chapter, has his Maurey moment .. "Joseph was NOT the father", and contradicts himself. Woops. Then there is the whole "virgin birth" business, which the Christians drove over the cliff, by mistranslating it .. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rgin+birth . Also the placement in Bethlehem, was constructed, specifically to place the birth in Bethlehem, to be coincident with the Davidic prophecies. Woops. It's one of the ways we know for sure the gospels are non-historical, and were made up.
a. Quirinius was Governor of Judea and Herod was King at the time of the birth, in the Gospels. Woops. Herod was dead for ten years, when Quirinius was made Governor, and b. we know from Roman records, there never was a census during those years, so (woops), the birth story in Bethlehem is a fable.

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27-06-2012, 12:00 PM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
I think I won this debate because she fell back and played the old "faith" card.
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27-06-2012, 01:11 PM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(27-06-2012 12:00 PM)That One Guy Wrote:  I think I won this debate because she fell back and played the old "faith" card.


If you find yourself playing a game of Go Fish with a Christian, ask them if they have any Faith. You'll find it's the only card they have.

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28-06-2012, 06:07 AM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2012 06:11 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(27-06-2012 12:00 PM)That One Guy Wrote:  I think I won this debate because she fell back and played the old "faith" card.


SO faith is interesting. It means that at some specific place, she chose to suspend her reason, and accept that there are things which she would consent to affirm with no evidence, at all, and make the leap of faith. (If there is no leap/suspension, it's not "faith").

Some questions are :

a. was it a rational process, leading up to the leap, or is faith a "virtue", (granted by grace), by her god ? If it's by grace, then why does she think her god grants that grace to her, and not you ? If it's by grace, does she feel comfortable being irrational, and god being an irrational, inconsistent, absurd, discriminatory, arbitrary, and capritious...in short "perfect" being ?.

b. if it's not a rational process, when, (at what point in her investigation process), did she choose to suspend her reason ?

c. why exactly, did she choose, at the point of the leap, to suspend her reason ?

d. if the suspension of rationality is acceptable, is it this the only place in her life where being irrational is acceptable, or has she just chosen, in general to be an irrational person ?

e. has she ever considered seeing a psychiatrist ?

Thank you Jesus.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-06-2012, 08:00 AM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
(27-06-2012 07:00 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-06-2012 04:58 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Christians often claim the Old Testament prophesied details of Jesus’ birth, his missionary zeal, his miracles, his preaching, his betrayal by a friend, his death, his resurrection and ascension, and many other aspects of his biography. In fact, Christians often claim Jesus must have been the messiah because he makes so many of these prophecies seem to come true. All Hebrew scholars today deny this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus). I think that they are right, and Christians are wrong. Yeshua/Jesus was not the messiah predicted in the Old Testament for the following reasons.


Firstly, the New Testament authors crafted theirJesus story to fit the messiah tradition, and what is more, there are numerous instances where they had a flawed understanding of scripture, or else deliberately changed its meaning, then claimed Jesus was fulfilling their incorrect interpretation. Jesus’ genealogies (both of them), his birth in Bethlehem, his birth to a virgin mother, and his escape from Egypt are examples.


A couple footnotes about two of these. First.. the geneology. Matthew spends the entire first chapter going through a long convoluted exposition of how Yehsua ben Josef was related to King David, thus fulfilled the "prophesy" of the Messiah belonging to the Davidic house. Then at the very end of the chapter, has his Maurey moment .. "Joseph was NOT the father", and contradicts himself. Woops. Then there is the whole "virgin birth" business, which the Christians drove over the cliff, by mistranslating it .. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rgin+birth . Also the placement in Bethlehem, was constructed, specifically to place the birth in Bethlehem, to be coincident with the Davidic prophecies. Woops. It's one of the ways we know for sure the gospels are non-historical, and were made up.
a. Quirinius was Governor of Judea and Herod was King at the time of the birth, in the Gospels. Woops. Herod was dead for ten years, when Quirinius was made Governor, and b. we know from Roman records, there never was a census during those years, so (woops), the birth story in Bethlehem is a fable.
Yep, yep, yep, yep and yep. KC, just in case you're reading this, this is the sort of information you really need to digest before you start teaching the bible as truth. Thanks Bucky, you're spot on as usual.
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28-06-2012, 08:10 AM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2012 08:24 AM by Logisch.)
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
Vague self fulfilling prophecy is still vague self fulfilling prophecy.

I predict that in 10 years at approximately 2:00pm, july the 23rd, 10 people at some place in the world will eat mexican food that will give them diarrhea. There will be clouds in the sky. Somewhere in the world someone will proclaim, "Jenny, why did you put that there!?" and somewhere in Japan someone will announce a new technology. At this time, when this happens, we will be moving around the sun and then... and only then... will it be possible for the donkey to go "HEEHAW" at 2:30pm. When this happens... This will be the sign of the coming apocalypse.

(much better prophecy, more specific, and more likely to come true, these are generic things, all of which happen regularly around the world...)

The problem with biblical prophecy is that it is not specific. A "prophecy" should be specific, with very very specific detailed events on specific detailed days that outline things that are in no doubt unique to that specific event.

For instance, the stuff I listed above are common events. Given a population of 7 billion people, it is likely that within 30 minutes, within that 7 billion population that it's more than likely to happen. So did I predict something that is prophecy? Or did I go off of statistical possibility? Not only that, but is what I listed something that could be interpreted to happen at any other time?

A specific prophecy would be...

in 2013 on such and such day in such and such country, such and such individual is elected with precisely such and such votes, at this time there is a solar eclipse, at which time a volcano erupts with blood and then a man by the name of hurro hurro who has only one arm and a red eye will climb mount everest and shout in a demonic spooky voice that his favorite gum is mint flavored, at which time a dragon will descend from the sky, burn the city of LA, leaving only the quick mart on the corner of 3rd and franklin in which a hero will emerge.

Now THAT would be a prophecy. Because there is really no way that it could possibly happen, nor likely to happen ever again in that specific occurrence and there would be no way to know that would happen. If someone predicted that and it happened, ok, I might go... "Alright guys, they're onto something here... it isn't every day hurro hurro climbs mount everest and a dragon burns down LA and the owner of the quick mart becomes a super hero... Shit.... I was wrong about these guys."

Specific, unquestionable, not reproducible historical event...

But by the logic of most biblical or religious "prophecy" in how easily it can be self fulfilled or open to interpretation... I predict you'll have horrible indigestion and end up with massive diarrhea sometime in the next 10 years. Just remember... when it happens, I PREDICTED IT.

Another question to ask:

- How many times has biblical prophecy been "witnessed" over the vast ages and ended up being incorrect? *cough* harold camping *cough*
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28-06-2012, 12:33 PM
RE: Friend thinks that bible prophecy proves the bible, need help on what to say.
Ask her "What exactly does prophecy do for you" ?
Will you follow someone's financial advice if they say they know for certain that the stock market is going up. If they say that they have prayed to god about it and this is what god told him. Told him and only him about this great surge in the stock market. With this divine prophecy, you can make money by trusting in the word of god.

Would she trust in this prophecy ?

Does prophecy help her to sleep better at night ? "The city was destroyed as god said it would be. All of those innocent children killed, just as god said it would happen. Praise be god for this prophecy"

Usually when you hear about a Prophet, there is profit to be made from those who believe.

"People hear my words, I can predict the future. Many years from now, long after I'm dead, there will be a famine among your people. There will not be enough food to eat. Water will be scarce. Animals and hunting will be hard to find. But fear not, for there will be a man among you who will feed you and he will be my messenger. Trust in him. Give him your wealth and he will not lead you astray. Put all your trust in him and do not question him. Obey him. Do everything he asks of you and you will be well fed."

This ^ is what religion does. It sets up someone to gather money from those who need someone to take care of them, through either physical, emotional or the invented spiritual means.

Prophecy is useless. It's a tool to guide the gullible.

Ask her "How many people did this prophecy save" ?
This prophecy predicted that this person would be king and during his rule a great war would have killed most of his people, but that happen.
Obviously someone took this prophecy to heart and made sure that he was never king. It says here his entire family was killed so that no one with that last name would ever be king.
Ask her "So how is it that we can stop this prophecy, if it is god's will. If this is god's word then the prophecy cannot be undone, but yet it was, so that must mean that this is NOT god's word. If a prophecy is not fulfilled, then it's NOT the will of god. It's a lie. These words in the bible, this prophecy was not fulfilled. It was a lie. The words in the bible foretelling of this are lies. Humans are capable of lying. Humans wrote the bible.

The very first book shows that the humans who wrote the bible lied in the name of god.
God said to Adam and Eve "If you eat of this fruit, you will die"
They ate of the fruit and they did not die. Was this a lie that god told ? or was this a lie that humans told when they wrote the stories of the bible.

Tell her all of this.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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