From Deism to Atheism
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29-04-2015, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2015 07:48 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(28-04-2015 03:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But that is the truth. You claim something as universally wrong because you don't like it.

That’s not the truth. When I say something is morally wrong, I’m making a factual statement, even if that statement is false, or the equivalent of saying there’s a tea pot orbiting the moon. That it’s wrong independent of whether I like it or not. I may like to keep the wallet you dropped, but I may return it to you, against this desire, because I see it as wrong, as a violation of some moral law.

I’ve stolen before, sometimes I’d even justify it, by saying things such as I’ve been stolen from, that the person shouldn’t have been careless (as if I’m teaching the person a lesson), all I’m doing here is justifying why it was okay for me to violate this moral law in this instance, a defense that likely wouldn’t hold up in a hypothetical moral court, nor one that held up to the accusations of my conscious, that my theft was indefensible, and I was wrong.

All you need to recognize here, is that I’m not really talking about what I like or don’t like, I’m talking about this perception of a natural law, a thou shall not steal, something that I can’t rid myself of. If I were to say to myself that it’s not real, it’s just an illusion, a product of religious indoctrination, to get around the wrongness of my theft, I would be lying to myself, resorting to another self-justifying scheme, like trying to justify it by the individuals carelessness.

The question for you is why do I, and others such as myself, perceive a moral law? Is it because of a religious upbringing, where thou shall not steal, is seen as written in stone, a commandment? How do you account for this perception?

Quote:
(28-04-2015 08:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But the more interesting question is this, if morality is a con, a delusion, how do you account for this con? How do we explain the prevalence, and existence of this false belief? What’s the main source, that fosters, and propagates this con?
I have already addressed this.

No, you haven’t. You didn’t seem to understand the question. See the above, where it’s reiterated again.

Quote:If there is not government or police then often the big boys will get want they want and the smaller people will have to cater to the big boys. […]. People do kill other people, people do rape other people, it is part of human behaviour. But you assume that most people don't do these things because of some sort of universal moral truth.

This is where you're confused. I’m not talking about moral behavior, but moral knowledge. Just because I know that stealing is wrong, doesn’t mean that I won’t steal, or that cheating on my wife is wrong, that I won’t cheat on her. The apostle Paul put it like this: “For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want”.

You seem to be prone to viewing things in a systemizing way. This seems to be the way you grapple with questions like this. So I’d assume you perception and objection here, would be in a consideration of something akin to a robot, programmed with a series of laws, and if such laws were in place than these robots would act in accordance with these laws. This seems to make sense of why you object to the moral law, by appealing to human behavior contrary to these very principles.

But this is not the case when it comes to human beings. So what does this mean in regards to moral knowledge, the moral law, in regards to those who act contrary to it, who justify their actions, etc..?

To put it simply it’s pathological, in a lot of cases this blatantly clear. If some one were going out and torturing babies just for the fun of it, we’d recognize this individuals as deranged, as having something psychologically wrong with him. And we mean this literally. In fact I gave some examples of this in my previous post, regarding the man who killed his wife, and Nazis.

It involves a sort of denial, a series of lies we have to tell ourselves, delusions. Aspects not true for people who like country music vs those who like hip hop.

Quote:Don't you think that living in a society of people it makes sense to outlaw murder because no one in that society wants to be murdered?




Of course it makes sense, just like speeding limits, and homeowners policies make sense. But murder being illegal, just like speeding is illegal, is not the same as seeing murder as morally wrong. You’re conflating aspects like moral knowledge, moral behavior, and how to enforce, or legislate our morality. When I’m just talking about morality, the moral law, about what’s wrong, but not in any way shape or form suggesting how to make things right.

Quote:Being a Christian you are not innocent, they have the right to kill you.

Yes, knowing they cannot take an innocent life, they have to see me as not innocent to kill me, to justify there actions not only to others, but to themselves.

Quote:What about the Amazon tribe?

It’s interesting that you mentioned this Amazonian tribe, I had to look them up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...urial.html

In order for this tribe to kill their disabled babies. They have to believe these children are unlike other babies, that they lack a soul, unlike them, and that they are cursed. There view here is a lie, a deception, a delusion. If they recognized these children are no different than others children, they wouldn’t be able to kill them. There’a reality here in which they have to deny to commit murder.

Here’s another account from the Amazonian tribe:

“Born in 1995, Hakani - which means Smile - was still unable to walk or talk by the age of two, prompting tribal leaders to conclude she had no soul and to order her parents to kill her.

They committed suicide - eating a poison root - rather than obey the order. Hakani's 15-year-old brother was then told he had to kill her. He dug a hole to bury her next to the village hut, which is where the tribe usually buries animals, and hit her over the head with a machete to knock her out.

However, she woke up as she was being placed in the hole and the boy found he could not go through with the killing. Hakani's grandfather then shot her with an arrow. He was so upset he tried to commit suicide, too.”

If killing handicapped babies in such cases is a matter of likes and dislikes, and these individuals are from tribes in which this is endorsed, why would these parents from the same tribe be so strongly opposed to it, that they'd commit suicide rather than kill their own child? Or the Grandfather who shot an arrow through his granddaughter, be so upset that he had to commit suicide?

It’s evident that the wrongness of murdering an innocent child, is far more fundamental.

Quote:Should we interfere in their lives and stop them killing their own defective babies? Merely because we don't like it?

No, if it was merely a matter that we don’t like it, than we shouldn’t be interfering at all, as suggested by Dr. Erwin Frank. But luckily there are folks who don’t see it as a matter of not liking it, but morally wrong, and the Brazilian Government passed an infanticide law in 2011, as a result.

http://grassrootsnews.tv/2011/06/01/braz...t-to-life/

Quote:Love is a vague concept. I would expect it means something somewhat magical to you. Something godly. ….We both have our different opinions as to the root cause for my own behaviour.

I think I may have been mistaken. I used to think that you were pretty normal, and as a result of certain commitments, held the views you did, but perhaps didn’t really believe them. Now, I think you’re just odd, and your views are a result of this oddness. You seem to see things in a very systematic sort of way, that when a concept that doesn’t break down as easily in this way is introduced, you find it vague, something you can’t particularly compute, like goodness, and love.

It’s seems like a pretty straightforward question, no magic was being implied here. In which most people religious or not, would likely have said yes. But you on the other had see “love” as a vague concept, that you’re not particularly sure if you treat your wife well, or tend to your children the way you do, primarily because of love. It’s interesting, but I don’t get it.

Do you think your wife and kids love you? Do you believe you parents did/do?

Or is a “love” to vague of a concept here as well, that you don’t know?
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29-04-2015, 08:07 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
"It's very difficult Until now, I just could unbury one alive,Amalé. His mother was single, she cried a lot, but her father [the baby's grandfather] buried him . He wascrying inside the grave, so my relatives called me. I came inside the house and askedwhere he was buried, and I took him from the grave. Blood issued from his mouth, buthe survived. He's sick, but I decided to raise him. Now he's my son. He's a beautiful boy,not a dog. It's wrong to bury." -Kamirú Kamaiurá
indigenous woman

Clearly this Amazonian tribe member sees this as wrong? And it's not even in relationship to her own children, she took in someone else's unwanted child as a result. And clearly sees the wrongness of burying children alive, that a child is not a dog. She recognizes the wrongness of it, as we would. How do you account for that?

http://www.academia.edu/200839/Cultural_..._Bioethics
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29-04-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 07:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 03:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But that is the truth. You claim something as universally wrong because you don't like it.

That’s not the truth. When I say something is morally wrong, I’m making a factual statement, even if that statement is false, or the equivalent of saying there’s a tea pot orbiting the moon. That it’s wrong independent of whether I like it or not. I may like to keep the wallet you dropped, but I may return it to you, against this desire, because I see it as wrong, as a violation of some moral law.

No, you are not making a statement of fact - you are making an assertion.

If you said "I believe X is morally wrong" then you would be making a statement of fact.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-04-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 08:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, you are not making a statement of fact - you are making an assertion.

If you said "I believe X is morally wrong" then you would be making a statement of fact.

I'm not repeating the same semantical argument I had several months ago.

If you want to claim that I'm not making a statement of fact, but asserting a fact, that's fine be me. If you find "a statement" to be too strong of a word, and "assertion" to be more appropriate, that's okay, just substitute it in your head, it makes no difference for me.
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29-04-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 08:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 08:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, you are not making a statement of fact - you are making an assertion.

If you said "I believe X is morally wrong" then you would be making a statement of fact.

I'm not repeating the same semantical argument I had several months ago.

If you want to claim that I'm not making a statement of fact, but asserting a fact, that's fine be me. If you find "a statement" to be too strong of a word, and "assertion" to be more appropriate, that's okay, just substitute it in your head, it makes no difference for me.

No, we shouldn't have to guess what you mean. I suggest you use accurate language if you wish to be understood.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-04-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 08:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, we shouldn't have to guess what you mean. I suggest you use accurate language if you wish to be understood.

This has nothing to do with the accuracy of language. In fact according to the dictionary, assertion and statement are synonymous.

STATEMENT

1: something stated: as
a : a single declaration or remark : assertion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statement

It's all to do with you.

You created this fictive distinction between the two terms, and claim that I should adhere to this distinction, for no other reasons, than perhaps your irrational posseviness over certain words.
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29-04-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 09:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 08:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, we shouldn't have to guess what you mean. I suggest you use accurate language if you wish to be understood.

This has nothing to do with the accuracy of language. In fact according to the dictionary, assertion and statement are synonymous.

STATEMENT

1: something stated: as
a : a single declaration or remark : assertion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statement

It's all to do with you.

You created this fictive distinction between the two terms, and claim that I should adhere to this distinction, for no other reasons, than perhaps your irrational posseviness over certain words.

No, they are not the same - an assertion is a type of statement; a statement is not necessarily an assertion.

But that is not the point. I am disagreeing that you were making a statement of fact. You were expressing an opinion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-04-2015, 10:15 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2015 10:20 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 10:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, they are not the same - an assertion is a type of statement; a statement is not necessarily an assertion.

Take that up with Merriam Webster, not me.

Quote:You were expressing an opinion.

No, it's no more an opinion, than a claim that there's a tea pot orbiting the sun, is an opinion,
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29-04-2015, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2015 10:19 AM by Chas.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 10:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 10:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, they are not the same - an assertion is a type of statement; a statement is not necessarily an assertion.

Take that up with Merriam Webster, not me.

You are wrong - look up 'assertion'.
as·ser·tion əˈsərSH(ə)n/
noun
  1. a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief.
    "his assertion that his father had deserted the family"
  2. the action of stating something or exercising authority confidently and forcefully.
    "the assertion of his legal rights"


Now how about you address the actual point.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-04-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(29-04-2015 10:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2015 10:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Take that up with Merriam Webster, not me.

You are wrong - look up 'assertion'.

You mean Merriam Webster is wrong:

STATEMENT:

: something stated: as
a : a single declaration or remark : assertion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statement

Or are they correct here?

Quote:Now how about you address the actual point.

Perhaps I've missed the point you're making, because all I see is you quibbling about my word choices?

And honestly with your definition of assertion, it's not clear what you are arguing here?

Earlier you said: "No, you are not making a statement of fact - you are making an assertion."

Are you now backtracking here, and telling me that I did not make an assertion, but an opinion?
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