From Deism to Atheism
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04-05-2015, 01:22 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 09:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To merely lack a belief, relates to things for which we have no view or opinion one way or the other, such as I lack a belief in you having a dog, or a german automobile.
A dog is a real creature, a german automobile exists. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that I own a dog or a german automobile.

But a mythical god, made of nothing that can perform magic contrary to the known laws of physics, that would be very special indeed, there is no precedence for this. It would take a special kind of mind to consider this is true without seeing any evidence.

I not only disbelieve that you own such a creature but I disbelieve that such a creature can exist, I disbelieve in magic and I disbelieve in creatures made of nothing.
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04-05-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 09:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s because you suspect they are illusionary that you ack a belief.
That would be putting the cart before the horse.
I don't care if they exist or not. I have no vested interest either way.
The burden of proof is on the existence.
I disbelieve until some compelling evidence comes forth.
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04-05-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 01:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That would be putting the cart before the horse.
I don't care if they exist or not. I have no vested interest either way.

I don't really care whether you care if they exist or not, or whether you have an vested interest one way or the other, lol. In fact I also don't care about what you lack a belief in either.

The only thing I'm interested in is your belief, your suspicion that morality is illusory.
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04-05-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 09:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There’s a problem here. It doesn’t particularly follow that if objective morality exist, that it need be magical or remarkable, it could just as well be mundane and natural, depending on how one looks at it. In fact there seems to be a variety of people who don’t hold any real magical beliefs, who subscribe to objective morality, some who even classify themselves as atheists, as you likely already know.

My particular christian beliefs and objective morality are not one and the same thing here. While my religious beliefs may be dependent on this being true, objective morality itself is not dependent on my religious beliefs, or magical beliefs as you put it, being true.

A recent convert to moral realism, is the philosopher Thomas Nagel, who considers himself an atheist, and who is opposed to the idea of their being a God at all. He accepts moral realism because it just makes more sense than the alternative, and I would classify his views as mundane and unremarkable, a common sense perception. While the alternative, of morality being illusionary, as being quite radical, so radical in fact, that folks like Dennet who hold this to be the case, believe if word got out it would lead to the upheaval of civilizations itself. That’s not a mundane alternative here.

Let’s consider this for a minute. You see the very same things, but consider them illusions, while I consider them real. Off the bat it’s clear we’re not particularly speaking of common subjective preferences, of likes or dislikes. When I say I find scrambled eggs tastier than over easy eggs, we don’t call this an illusion. My taste buds, do find one more tasty than the other.

If you argue that morality is subjective, or an illusion, you have to account for the perception otherwise, and make better sense of them, than assuming they are real.

The view that they are real, doesn’t require an explanation as to how they came to be so, what mechanics, on what area of chemical makeup they exist in, or etc… It’s a conclusion, like concluding the wounds on a body were intended, which doesn’t require us to know who or what did it, or even the exact weapon being used, before drawing this conclusion.
Let's set a precedent here for illusionary moral beliefs.

For the sake of argument lets assume a person's feeling of "guilt" is the way a person taps into the universal standard of objective morality.

As you have said, a Catholic can feel guilty for masturbating.
You have also stated that masturbating is not wrong. (I don't know how you came about this knowledge but lets just assume you are correct)
Does this mean that the Catholic person is experiencing an illusion regarding to the immorality of masturbating?
They are experiencing the guilt and guilt is the way humans tap into the universal knowledge of objective morality. so it seems to be an illusion given our assertion that masturbation isn't wrong.

How do you explain this? How is this not an illusion that the Catholic masturbator is experiencing?
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04-05-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 01:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  As you have said, a Catholic can feel guilty for masturbating.
You have also stated that masturbating is not wrong. (I don't know how you came about this knowledge but lets just assume you are correct).

I wasn't stating that it's not wrong, I was burrowing your example, trying to piece together your reasoning, since you mentioned this previously. You seemed to suggest that notion of masturbating being wrong, was a result of church teachings, and indoctrination several post a go. I was using it to see how this relates to the perception of infanticide being wrong, or other wrongs in general.

Quote:Does this mean that the Catholic person is experiencing an illusion regarding to the immorality of masturbating?

Isn't that what you believe? That the wrongness he perceives is illusory?

Quote:How do you explain this? How is this not an illusion that the Catholic masturbator is experiencing?

According to you it as an illusion, and I'm asking how you think this illusion came to be? Is it because people raised him to believe it was wrong, and that's why he feels the way he does? That if he wasn't raised this way those same feelings likely wouldn't appear?
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04-05-2015, 02:40 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 01:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  As you have said, a Catholic can feel guilty for masturbating.
You have also stated that masturbating is not wrong. (I don't know how you came about this knowledge but lets just assume you are correct).

I wasn't stating that it's not wrong, I was burrowing your example, trying to piece together your reasoning, since you mentioned this previously. You seemed to suggest that notion of masturbating being wrong, was a result of church teachings, and indoctrination several post a go. I was using it to see how this relates to the perception of infanticide being wrong, or other wrongs in general.

Quote:Does this mean that the Catholic person is experiencing an illusion regarding to the immorality of masturbating?

Isn't that what you believe? That the wrongness he perceives is illusory?

Quote:How do you explain this? How is this not an illusion that the Catholic masturbator is experiencing?

According to you it as an illusion, and I'm asking how you think this illusion came to be? Is it because people raised him to believe it was wrong, and that's why he feels the way he does? That if he wasn't raised this way those same feelings likely wouldn't appear?

Damn it is annoying how you reply to honest and genuine questions with more questions, and project those same said questions right back to Stevil. Answer the friggin questions! Kudos Stevil as this discussion is getting exhausting and unsatisfying.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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04-05-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 02:40 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Damn it is annoying how you reply to honest and genuine questions with more questions, and project those same said questions right back to Stevil. Answer the friggin questions! Kudos Stevil as this discussion is getting exhausting and unsatisfying.

I think your perception is skewered by a selection bias,
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04-05-2015, 02:56 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Does this mean that the Catholic person is experiencing an illusion regarding to the immorality of masturbating?

Isn't that what you believe? That the wrongness he perceives is illusory?

Quote:How do you explain this? How is this not an illusion that the Catholic masturbator is experiencing?

According to you it as an illusion, and I'm asking how you think this illusion came to be? Is it because people raised him to believe it was wrong, and that's why he feels the way he does? That if he wasn't raised this way those same feelings likely wouldn't appear?

(04-05-2015 02:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 02:40 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Damn it is annoying how you reply to honest and genuine questions with more questions, and project those same said questions right back to Stevil. Answer the friggin questions! Kudos Stevil as this discussion is getting exhausting and unsatisfying.

I think your perception is skewered by a selection bias,

Selection bias my ass - do you see the examples above? Can you read your replies?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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04-05-2015, 03:26 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 02:56 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Isn't that what you believe? That the wrongness he perceives is illusory?


According to you it as an illusion, and I'm asking how you think this illusion came to be? Is it because people raised him to believe it was wrong, and that's why he feels the way he does? That if he wasn't raised this way those same feelings likely wouldn't appear?

(04-05-2015 02:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think your perception is skewered by a selection bias,

Selection bias my ass - do you see the examples above? Can you read your replies?

Yes, it's skewered, since you avoided the post prior to the two you highlighted, in which the example was a part of a question, that was never answered, but replied to with a series of questions instead. I'll copy and paste the relevant part:

"I asked why do people feel guilt when committing certain actions? Guilt is something that typically follows when a person feels they have done some wrong, or violated some principle.

One explanation could be that, is that society, like churches may have indoctrinated people into believing certain things are wrong, like the catholic church on masturbation. Even though there’s nothing wrong with masturbation. But since some people are cajoled into believe it’s wrong, guilt follows as a result.

Since Amazonian tribes advocate for infanticide, as a necessity, as right, members of this tribe would not feel guilt when killing their handicapped young, because the same indoctrination present in other cultures, against such practices is non-existent. Guilt would not follow in this instance, like guilt wouldn’t follow folks who were taught there’s nothing wrong with masturbation.

Is this something you believe? "

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid776012
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04-05-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 11:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-05-2015 08:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You don't like sitting on the fence? You need answers even if there is insufficient data to come to a conclusion?

None of us are sitting on the fence here, if think we are, we’re likely just fooling ourselves. When we hold beliefs such as Gods as imaginary, that believers are wrong in their views, Gods are delusional beliefs, religious were created for the sake of controlling power, etc.. we’re on a side,
What if we hold the view that there is no evidence for or against gods? That the definition of gods isn't properly formed?
My position is of disbelief. I have had a similar disagreement with a strong atheist who was strangely enough, insisting that I held a belief that gods were possible even though I told him that I didn't know if gods were possible or not.
(04-05-2015 11:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’m not sure why atheists such as yourself, often puts these particular beliefs that they commonly hold in the background, as if they’re not factors in their disbelief.
I don't believe in gods and I don't believe gods don't exist.
I don't believe that you are wrong when you say that the Christian god exists. I just don't think you have any evidence for the existence of your god. I have no idea where you get your knowledge from. In the absence of a trustworthy source of information I expect that it is most likely that your information is false, but you may have fluked it and arrived at the truth.
It seems that your religion promotes the idea of faith and belief and does not promote the idea of being a doubting Thomas.
(04-05-2015 11:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  This does mean that I would have to know for a fact that these conclusions are true, I would just have to accept that these are more likely to be true than the alternative, or at least, to use your word “suspect” it to be true, rather than not.
How do you assess likelihood?
Personally I use precedence.
If I consider a unicorn as being a horse like animal with a horn on the front of its head then I can see that animals exist, I can see that horses exist, I can see that some anmals have horns on the front of their heads. To me it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to have a horse like animal with a horn on its head.
We haven't seen unicorns on Earth so they probably arent here.
There are around 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in our observable universe. Our star has 8 planets. I would expect that there is life and evolution on many planets in the observable universe. It doesn't seem to me to be too much of a stretch that unicorns exist somewhere within our observable universe. I don't however believe in unicorns and I don't hold a belief that they don't exist.
Regarding gods. If a god is an intelligence that is made of nothing and isn't bound to the laws of physics, then there is no precedence for such a creature.
It seems much more likely to me that unicorns exist than gods existing. I however do not believe in gods and I do not hold a belief that gods don't exist.
(04-05-2015 11:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence.
You've heard of the Black swan saga right?

It wouldn’t be an absence of evidence, as much as it would be evidence better accounted for by alternative explanations. i.e that the evidence is in favor of God being a delusion, imaginary, rather than real. Or that evidence is in favor of morality being illusory, rather than real.
Better explanations of what?
There is no evidence for a god, we don't require evidence that god doesn't exist. What would that evidence look like?
If you claim that gods exist then you have the burden of proof.
There is no evidence for objective moral truths, we don't require evidence against objective moral truths.
If you claim that objective moral truths exist then you have the burden of proof.
My claim is that I disbelieve objective moral truths because I have not seen any evidence for them. I can see how some people assume that they exist because those people assume feelings of guilt has some profound universal meaning.
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