From Deism to Atheism
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04-05-2015, 04:01 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-05-2015 01:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  As you have said, a Catholic can feel guilty for masturbating.
You have also stated that masturbating is not wrong. (I don't know how you came about this knowledge but lets just assume you are correct).

I wasn't stating that it's not wrong,
OK, so how do we discover whether masturbation is wrong or not?
(04-05-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Isn't that what you believe? That the wrongness he perceives is illusory?
You are trying so hard to make my position a position of belief.
My position is that we cannot know if anything is wrong. We have no authority to go to in order to resolve the dispute. There is no objective method of discovery.
I merely point out (if you insist that guilt is an indicator) that two people can do the same thing, one feels guilt, the other doesn't. How can feelings of guilt be used to resolve the question of whether something is objectively wrong?

(04-05-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:How do you explain this? How is this not an illusion that the Catholic masturbator is experiencing?
According to you it as an illusion, and I'm asking how you think this illusion came to be?
You are misconstruing my position. I feel it is because you don't want to address my actual position.
I said that I suspect it is an illusion.
I suspect because " two people can do the same thing, one feels guilt, the other doesn't. "
If both of these people believe in objective morality then one thinks masturbation is immoral the other thinks it is moral. Both people can't be correct. At least one person must be incorrect, that person might be experiencing an illusion.
It is also possible that both people are incorrect, both might be experiencing an illusion.
It is not possible that both people are correct.
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04-05-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
Is there a reason you try and avoid the infanticide questions, and the series of questions proposed by the amazonian tribe?

Is it because you think your views are likely to be seen as controversial, and you don't want to offend people sensibilities?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-05-2015, 04:33 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 03:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  "I asked why do people feel guilt when committing certain actions? Guilt is something that typically follows when a person feels they have done some wrong, or violated some principle.

One explanation could be that, is that society, like churches may have indoctrinated people into believing certain things are wrong, like the catholic church on masturbation. Even though there’s nothing wrong with masturbation. But since some people are cajoled into believe it’s wrong, guilt follows as a result.

Since Amazonian tribes advocate for infanticide, as a necessity, as right, members of this tribe would not feel guilt when killing their handicapped young, because the same indoctrination present in other cultures, against such practices is non-existent. Guilt would not follow in this instance, like guilt wouldn’t follow folks who were taught there’s nothing wrong with masturbation.

Is this something you believe? "
No, I lack belief.
I think it is highly likely that Catholics who experience guilt for masturbating feel the guilt because they are taught that it is bad.
I suspect that most atheists whom lack this teaching, don't feel guilt for masturbating.
So it seems likely to attribute this feeling of guilt to the teachings of the Catholic church.

Regarding the Amazon tribe, some people might consider it bad despite what their leaders tell them. The amazons possibly don't cntrol every thought of their members like the Catholics do. Plus I'm sure many amazonians go their whole adult life trying to avoid harming other amazonian members so switching to harming a young child may feel wrong according to this continuum
Plus, many people have empathy, they may feel for the baby's plight.
There are so many reasons why an amazonian may feel it "wrong". None of these appeal to a universal truth. They appear to me to be just a matter of personal opinion.
If you were to continue to claim that they are due to objective moral truths, then I'd like to hear how you would suggest we objectively discover moral truths.
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04-05-2015, 04:39 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2015 04:48 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 04:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If both of these people believe in objective morality then one thinks masturbation is immoral the other thinks it is moral. Both people can't be correct. At least one person must be incorrect, that person might be experiencing an illusion.

He can be incorrect without it being an illusion, he could just be mistaken. In fact even to argue that masterbstion is right or wrong, it's always in consideration of some series of governing principles. Such as masterbstion is not immoral because it doesn't harm anybody, which presupposes a principle that we shouldnt harm others. Perhaps one is wrong on whether or not in harms others.

In your Saudi treatment of woman, you did seem to hold woman should be treated equally, and your objections revolve more along the lines of how to confront this injustice of their predicament. You also seem opposed to force,and coercion, and value individual freedom, which you would even extend to parents to engage in infacticide if they chose to.

When I try and explore these telltales, you just try and slip away. Sometimes it seems that you don't truly believe what you say you believe. When the appearance of contradictions rise, you disappear.
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04-05-2015, 04:53 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
So empathy leads people to believe certain things are wrong, even if ones tribe suggest otherwise? But this wrongness illicited by empathy here, to believe it's wrong to murder an innocent child, is not real, it's just an illusion?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-05-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
Early you suggested that passing of a law prohibiting infanticide, was shameful. Would you find it shameful if someone rescued a handicap child about to be murdered by his tribe, out of empathy for the victim, shameful?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-05-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
The only way in which it would be even possible to convince you that there is a right and wrong, is to reveal that you're just pulling the wool over your own eyes. The more forthcoming you are, the more likely I think this would be apparent.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-05-2015, 05:03 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 04:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  He can be incorrect without it being an illusion, he could just be mistaken. In fact even to argue that masterbstion is right or wrong, it's always in consideration of some series of governing principles. Such as masterbstion is not immoral because it doesn't harm anybody, which presupposes a principle that we shouldnt harm others. Perhaps one is wrong on whether or not in harms others.
So who is to say that the standard or principle is whether it harms people?
How do we agree on a moral yard stick?

(04-05-2015 04:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  In your Saudi treatment of woman, you did seem to hold woman should be treated equally,
I haven't made this normative claim.
(04-05-2015 04:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  and your objections revolve more along the lines of how to confront this injustice of their predicament.
I haven't called it an injustice.
(04-05-2015 04:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You also seem opposed to force,and coercion,
Yes, as I explained, I don't want people to use force on me and I don't want to be hypocritical by using force on others and complain with others use force on me.
(04-05-2015 04:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  and value individual freedom, which you would even extend to parents to engage in infacticide if they chose to.
You have it a bit backwards.
I'm not arguing from a perspective of rights, I'm arguing from a perspective of implementing law, using police to force the will of government on the members of society.
If I give government too much power then they may force their will on me. Too much power in government = threat to me.
(04-05-2015 04:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When I try and explore these telltales, you just try and slip away. Sometimes it seems that you don't truly believe what you say you believe. When the appearance of contradictions rise, you disappear.
I have no contradictions and I have no beliefs, the problem is that you aren't taking the time to understand my position. You are resorting to thinking you know my position and are assuming I am wrong. If you want to understand my position you need to ask questions rather than to tell me what I think.
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04-05-2015, 05:06 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only way in which it would be even possible to convince you that there is a right and wrong, is to reveal that you're just pulling the wool over your own eyes. The more forthcoming you are, the more likely I think this would be apparent.
An alternative approach would be for you to describe a reliable and objective method to discover the moral truths.
We could then pick a few scenarios, run it through this method and find out once and for all whether these things are moral, immoral or neutral.
e.g.
Lying
Premarital sex
prostitution
masturbation
gay marriage
abortion
Polygamy

It seems people tend to debate these things forever, but if we can use this method of discovery then the debates would be over.
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04-05-2015, 05:08 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2015 05:34 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(04-05-2015 04:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  OK, so how do we discover whether masturbation is wrong or not?

I go with my PSA. If it's high it means I gotta crack one off more frequently. Not rocket science.

#sigh
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