From Deism to Atheism
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05-05-2015, 01:42 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 01:51 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(05-05-2015 01:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 04:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you find the UN Declaration of human rights to be a shame? Do you think it’s a shame when countries put pressure on other countries to comply with these standards? Like economic pressures, like refusing to trade with them, as they commonly do? Do you think it’s a shame when our governments oppose a genocide occurring in some other nation?
I don't support war. I don't support violence in order to get others to comply to opinions. I don't support countries interfering in the goings on in other countries.

How about people interfering in the goings on of other people? If I were to come upon a mob getting ready to rape a teenage girl, would you not support me intervening to save her life? Do you only support it if I do it in my home country, but not if I'm traveling abroad, perhaps to a country were rape wasn't illegal?

If your son was traveling on a business trip abroad, and inadvertently stubbled upon a scene in which a child was about to be stoned for being handicap, if he rescued that child from that angry mob out of empathy for the victim, without having to resort to violence, would you not be supportive of his intervention? Would you think his intervention was a shame?
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05-05-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(05-05-2015 01:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  How about people interfering in the goings on of other people? If I were to come upon a mob getting ready to rape a woman, would you not support me intervening to save her life? Do you only support it if I do it in my home country, but not if I'm traveling abroad, perhaps to a country were rape wasn't illegal?

If your son was traveling on a business trip abroad, and inadvertently stubbled upon a scene in which a child was about to be stoned for being handicap, if he rescued that child from that angry mob out of empathy for the victim, without having to resort to violence, would you not be supportive of his intervention? Would you think his intervention was a shame?
I think you've lost the plot somehow. You're too emotional right now to carry on with this conversation in an intellectual manner.
At no point did I say that I want anarchy.
I have stated that laws need to be based on something other than moral opinions.

We can continue this in a couple of days, just to give you time to settle down.
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05-05-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(05-05-2015 01:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 01:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  How about people interfering in the goings on of other people? If I were to come upon a mob getting ready to rape a woman, would you not support me intervening to save her life? Do you only support it if I do it in my home country, but not if I'm traveling abroad, perhaps to a country were rape wasn't illegal?

If your son was traveling on a business trip abroad, and inadvertently stubbled upon a scene in which a child was about to be stoned for being handicap, if he rescued that child from that angry mob out of empathy for the victim, without having to resort to violence, would you not be supportive of his intervention? Would you think his intervention was a shame?
I think you've lost the plot somehow. You're too emotional right now to carry on with this conversation in an intellectual manner.
At no point did I say that I want anarchy.
I have stated that laws need to be based on something other than moral opinions.

We can continue this in a couple of days, just to give you time to settle down.

I'm not emotional here. I'm just trying to see when you would support intervention, and when you wouldn't. I used strong examples primary to rid shades of grey from the equation. I would assume you would say you would support intervention in all these example, but with you I never know for sure, lol.
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05-05-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
Quote:Even if objective morality were true, if there is no way to discover them then who cares about them. There is no universal judgement.

I'm not talking about universal judgement. I'm talking about moral facts, that often are acknowledged and the background of moral arguments and debates.

Not only do I think that they require very little effort to discover, but they're self-evident, that even you know them, though you're parading around as if you don't. But you do make a interesting test case, since you claim to not believe in right or wrong even subjectively speaking. So it's kind of fun to put you in the conundrums were you risk contradicting yourself.

You imagine that I'm emotional here, but I'm not. But I am deliberately pushing the envelope a bit with my questions with very strong examples, but that's primarily to give you as little wiggle room as possible, to see more clearly into what you do and do not believe.

I apologize if this line of questioning bothers you, or if you're feeling attacked, but this seems to be the appropriate course if the burden is on me, to convince you.
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05-05-2015, 03:10 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(05-05-2015 01:52 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 01:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I think you've lost the plot somehow. You're too emotional right now to carry on with this conversation in an intellectual manner.
At no point did I say that I want anarchy.
I have stated that laws need to be based on something other than moral opinions.

We can continue this in a couple of days, just to give you time to settle down.

I'm not emotional here. I'm just trying to see when you would support intervention, and when you wouldn't. I used strong examples primary to rid shades of grey from the equation. I would assume you would say you would support intervention in all these example, but with you I never know for sure, lol.
You're not asking questions, you are trying to shame me. You keep repeating the word "shame" even though I have clarified. Your statement about rape, why didn't you word it in an unemotional question?
e.g.
"What is your position on rape within society? What rules and enforcement do you consider necessary? How do you justify government intervention?"
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05-05-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(05-05-2015 02:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Even if objective morality were true, if there is no way to discover them then who cares about them. There is no universal judgement.

I'm not talking about universal judgement. I'm talking about moral facts, that often are acknowledged and the background of moral arguments and debates.

Not only do I think that they require very little effort to discover, but they're self-evident, that even you know them, though you're parading around as if you don't. But you do make a interesting test case, since you claim to not believe in right or wrong even subjectively speaking. So it's kind of fun to put you in the conundrums were you risk contradicting yourself.

You imagine that I'm emotional here, but I'm not. But I am deliberately pushing the envelope a bit with my questions with very strong examples, but that's primarily to give you as little wiggle room as possible, to see more clearly into what you do and do not believe.

I apologize if this line of questioning bothers you, or if you're feeling attacked, but this seems to be the appropriate course if the burden is on me, to convince you.
Nothing bothers me, no topic. But it is fruitless to discuss philosophically with someone who appeals to emotions.
Making a claim that something such as moral facts as being self evidenct doesn't make them so. You cannot assert that I know them. I have already told you I do not know them.

And you stating claims like "into what you do and do not believe". This is aggressive on your behalf. I have already told you I lack beliefs and that my position isn't based on belief.
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05-05-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
You have tried to equate the position of a person with the position of a government.
My government is supposed to be a representation of me. I am free to state whether (in particular situations) that government is representing me or not. I make this claim by letting you know if I "support" that action of government.

With regards to the actions of an individual, it doesn't make sense to ask me if I support the actions of that individual. An individual isn't representing me. An individual does what that individual decides to do.
If you rush in to save a person dying in a fire or from being attacked by a mob, then that is your choice. You don't need my "mental" support. My "mental" support would be meaningless.
What is my position regarding police and use of police force? I think we need them in certain circumstances, but I think we need to understand that use of law and police equates to sanctioning violence. Law and law enforcement isn't benign and isn't to be taken lightly.
I am weary of vigilante action but understand that police can't always be there. Any vigilante action must be confined to the law and not in support of the individuals sense of morality. I live within socity, i don't want to be mugged or raped. If I were mugged or raped I would like people to help me. If you want that type of society then it makes sense that you may sometimes decide to be the helper rather than the helped.
Does this make it clear for you?
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05-05-2015, 03:42 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 03:46 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(05-05-2015 03:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You're not asking questions, you are trying to shame me. You keep repeating the word "shame" even though I have clarified.

Shame you?

Shame was the term you used, and I stopped using the term "shameful" as a result. And I was just asking a questions as to how you would apply the term in different scenarios, whether you would apply it the same as your previously did or not. I can't use the term, right, I can't use the term wrong. You used the term "shame", to describe actions you don't support, or approve of, and that just made parsimony a little easier, so I stuck with it.

I'm not trying to ascribe more to the term than what you meant previously by it. For as i'm concerned it just means you frown upon this or that.

Quote:Your statement about rape, why didn't you word it in an unemotional question?
e.g.
"What is your position on rape within society? What rules and enforcement do you consider necessary? How do you justify government intervention?"

Uhm, because I'm not asking to clarify your position on rape, or even rules and enforcement, or even government intervention. I'm asking about intervention itself, in fact non-government intervention.

I asked those questions I did previously, because I'm not sure what your answer would be? Where the line between intervention is supported by you, and when it's not. And I'm asking primary in relationship to individual people, not police officers, or even governments.

I'm not too sure why you're resistant on answering the questions. They're fairly straight forward, and I'm a bit bewildered by all the kickback.
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05-05-2015, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 04:02 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(05-05-2015 03:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Nothing bothers me, no topic. But it is fruitless to discuss philosophically with someone who appeals to emotions.

Empathy is an emotion correct?

You previously acknowledged that people sometimes perceive right and wrong as a result of empathy, even if that is in opposition to the views of one's tribe, such as someone from the same amazonian tribe practicing infanticide, viewing the practice as wrong, as a result of their empathy.

My questions are primarily about empathy, and in particularly in regards to situations that might illicit yours, and how you would respond to those scenarios. My empathy would cause me to desire to intervene to save these peoples lives, would yours? With this sort of intervention be something you support, particularly if one can do so non-violently?
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05-05-2015, 08:39 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2015 08:59 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
Could we maybe move EvilStevie v. Tomatillo to The Colloseum because I am embarrassed for the both of them?

#sigh
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