From Deism to Atheism
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24-04-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(24-04-2015 10:01 AM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  I feel like Deism is perhaps the humblest or least presumptuous of theological viewpoints. I think it's sort of a catch-all belief system for people who want to think that there's a foundation underneath some of Man's noble concepts like justice, morality, and purpose which is more eternal than Man himself.
Quote: To me it's essentially agnosticism with one foot in the "someone's looking out for us" camp.
I don't believe deism addresses anything like that, does it? Morality, justice, a watching god? Consider

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25-04-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(24-04-2015 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My question is primarily for folks who at one point in their life considered themselves deist but who eventually accepted atheism.

What led you to be a deist? And what caused you to go from being a deist to an atheist? Why did you reject deism?

I went through a brief deist period. The main reason was the whole Bible based program made no sense and was so absurd. I couldn't imagine a god creating us with this wonderful reasoning mind and then telling us to drop it and have faith. I still was not ready to abandon my belief that there was a higher power out there looking out for me. I rationalized that there was a god but not the one of the Bible. But eventually I had to be honest and admit that all of the arguments for god were flawed and then I learned about the issue of metaphysical primacy and the axioms and that was it. I can never believe in a god now that I know these things and I see the errors I was making that led me to believe there was a god in the first place. I am now unconvertible. Suck it theists. LOL.

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26-04-2015, 01:36 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(24-04-2015 09:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But in my view Deist unlike Atheist don't have to defend similar ideological commitments, they're not as dependent on defending and upholding materialism to the extent that many atheist would.
Atheists don't have to defend anything. All they need to do to qualify as an atheist is to lack a belief in gods.

Atheists don't even have to be materialists, atheists can be superstitious, they can believe in ghosts and fairies and magic and what not.

(24-04-2015 09:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And I think a lot of the views expressed by many liberal, humanistic atheists types, make a better fit with some sort of deism, than atheism. The views becomes more coherent, and less contradictory when aligned with deism than not.
You are conflating atheism with some other concepts and injecting some of your own religious conditioned ideas such as a requirement for a source of morality.

(24-04-2015 10:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The most readily available example, is morality, particularly some form of moral realism. Many atheists that I encounter here and elsewhere seem to hold views aligned with this, but it's not particularly coherent, or reconcilable with materialism.
I agree with you that what many atheists term as morality doesn't appear logically consistent when we consider all cases.

But something also to consider is that there doesn't appear to be a very concise definition of what morality actually is. Just try and get people to state fully what morality is, what qualifies an event as being morally significant or being outside of the domain of morality. It's very hard to get people to define a solid definition of it.

But "atheism" doesn't come with a "thou shalt agree to this type of morality". We are all different, many of us have different ideas with regards to morality. Me personally, I have no belief in morality what-so-ever, and I still qualify as being an atheist.

(24-04-2015 10:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheists are unable to get around relativism, that "all that is wrong with wanton cruelty is that they don't like it".
Depends on your definition of wrong.
I claim that nothing is morally wrong so I easily avoid this "problem"
Some people claim that causing suffering is wrong so hence wanton cruelty would be wrong in their minds - no god required.

(24-04-2015 10:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A deist on the other had is able to get around this same conundrum, by lacking the same allegiance, and dependency on a materialist account.
Do you assume that a deistic god not only created the universe but created a moral standard for humans to abide by?
I thought the deist god created everything and then sat back and observed rather than interfere, rather than judge others according to its own subjective moral standard.
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26-04-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
I was more of a deist as a child because my family never attended church beyond weddings. Therefore, organized religion always seemed silly to me. My mother used to say prayers with me every night before I went to sleep. She stopped when I was in my teens because I guess she thought I would continue without her. I may have continued out of habit for a little while (I honest don't remember), but I eventually stopped. This effectively killed what little faith I had. I was a nonbeliever by the time I entered high school. However, it wasn't until years later that my study of science, religion, and mythology led to my current atheism.
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26-04-2015, 01:18 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 01:36 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Atheists don't have to defend anything. All they need to do to qualify as an atheist is to lack a belief in gods.

Of course they don't have to defend anything, no more than theists do, or people who believe the earth is flat do. You can hold all sorts of contradictory, inconsistent beliefs. In fact in a recent pew survey, 1 in 5 self identifying atheists, claimed to believe in God.

But i'm speaking of folks who seek not to be inconsistent in such a way.

(26-04-2015 01:36 AM)Stevil Wrote:  But "atheism" doesn't come with a "thou shalt agree to this type of morality". We are all different, many of us have different ideas with regards to morality. Me personally, I have no belief in morality what-so-ever, and I still qualify as being an atheist.

And you also hold that people who believe in things like objective morality, moral realism, are wrong. In fact much of the basis for why you believe this is wrong, are aspects that you likely hold in common with other atheists, even if they don't follow you towards their own logical ends.

Quote:Depends on your definition of wrong.
I claim that nothing is morally wrong so I easily avoid this "problem"

Sure, but it doesn't seem that many people here follow in your foot steps.

Quote:Some people claim that causing suffering is wrong so hence wanton cruelty would be wrong in their minds - no god required.

Or in other words causing suffering is wrong simply because they don't like it.

Quote:Do you assume that a deistic god not only created the universe but created a moral standard for humans to abide by?
I thought the deist god created everything and then sat back and observed rather than interfere, rather than judge others according to its own subjective moral standard.

I'm not a diest, but deists can express teleological beliefs, because they presuppose some being, or some force capable or creating goal oriented aspects into human nature.

But in reality it doesn't have to be deism per se, Thomas Nagel who holds a series of teleological beliefs, but refuses to believe in a god, subscribes to what he refers to as a "neutral monism", a position that allows him to reject naturalism, and hold that moral realism is true, and that consciousness was an end goal of the created order.

Quote:But something also to consider is that there doesn't appear to be a very concise definition of what morality actually is. Just try and get people to state fully what morality is, what qualifies an event as being morally significant or being outside of the domain of morality.

Yet many of us would claim that torturing a baby just for the fun of it, is wrong, and that the "wrongness" here is not subjective like we might say when someone puts on the "wrong" shade of lipstick, but "wrong" like we'd say of 2+2=5.
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26-04-2015, 01:26 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 01:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-04-2015 01:36 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Atheists don't have to defend anything. All they need to do to qualify as an atheist is to lack a belief in gods.

Of course they don't have to defend anything, no more than theists do, or people who believe the earth is flat do.

Wrong. Atheism is a lack of belief in any gods - there is no belief to defend, there is no claim.

Quote:You can hold all sorts of contradictory, inconsistent beliefs. In fact in a recent pew survey, 1 in 5 self identifying atheists, claimed to believe in God.

Citation required. Really. If you don't supply one, you have forfeited any credibility you might have had.

Quote:But i'm speaking of folks who seek not to be inconsistent in such a way.

(26-04-2015 01:36 AM)Stevil Wrote:  But "atheism" doesn't come with a "thou shalt agree to this type of morality". We are all different, many of us have different ideas with regards to morality. Me personally, I have no belief in morality what-so-ever, and I still qualify as being an atheist.

And you also hold that people who believe in things like objective morality, moral realism, are wrong.

Some do , some don't. The problem one encounters with objective morality is what is the source?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-04-2015, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2015 01:42 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
ooopsy

#sigh
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26-04-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 01:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. Atheism is a lack of belief in any gods - there is no belief to defend, there is no claim.

Except of course atheists who hold beliefs in regards to Gods non-existence, and a variety of thing that follow from these beliefs.

Quote:
Quote:You can hold all sorts of contradictory, inconsistent beliefs. In fact in a recent pew survey, 1 in 5 self identifying atheists, claimed to believe in God.

Citation required. Really. If you don't supply one, you have forfeited any credibility you might have had.
[/quote]

I used this article for the 1 in 5: http://thehumanist.com/news/religion/do-...ve-in-god.

But it appears from the actual Pew site, it's 14%:

"Although the literal definition of “atheist” is “a person who believes that God does not exist,” according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, 14% of those who call themselves atheists also say they believe in God or a universal spirit. "

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...-atheists/

Quote: The problem one encounters with objective morality is what is the source?

Exactly
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26-04-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 01:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-04-2015 01:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. Atheism is a lack of belief in any gods - there is no belief to defend, there is no claim.

Except of course atheists who hold beliefs in regards to Gods non-existence, and a variety of thing that follow from these beliefs.

Can you please explain what those beliefs are?? No, I mean it. Can you actually answer a direct question? Give us a list....3 will do....it's that easy.
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26-04-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(25-04-2015 08:37 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I still was not ready to abandon my belief that there was a higher power out there looking out for me. I rationalized that there was a god but not the one of the Bible.

So you believed in this higher power, for no other real reason, other than you just wanted to believe there was someone looking out for you? For purely emotional reasons, and nothing even remotely resembling rational reasons?
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