From Deism to Atheism
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26-04-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 03:18 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  
(26-04-2015 03:10 PM)Dom Wrote:  I neither have faith that there is a god nor that there is no god.


You're just wrong, buddy!!!! God is a Dobermann!!!!

I'm a Doberfreak!!! I believe in Dobergod.

My vey large, very gentle Dobey is lying next to me as a type.

I love that big lump. sweetest dog in the universe.

You couldn't be more wrong! God is a German Shepherd! Herding his sheeples...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-04-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 02:56 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  
(26-04-2015 02:33 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  2. If there is no good evidence to believe in the existence of something, then we should remain agnostic about the existence of said thing.

Matt, excellent post. But I'm troubled by point 2 (as, of course, you will have guessed).

Consider the two following statements

1) God exists
2) 70 foot tall pink unicorns exist

I can't disprove either; both are possible. I see no good evidence that either is true. But should I be agnostic to both? And should I be "equally" agnostic towards both statements? If so, why? If not, why?

It's just not cautious to say "there is no evidence for it, therefore it doesn't exist." It would have been foolish for people thousands of years ago to say "there is no evidence for bacteria (no way to detect it), therefore it doesn't exist."

We should not fear the words "I don't know." "I don't know," is a perfectly good answer if that's the true one. Regarding the 70 foot tall pink unicorn, there is absolutely no evidence that one exists currently, but I would be careful in saying that it would be impossible for one to exist. We are in the very beginning phase of genetic engineering/modification....who knows what might be possible in a hundred years (or a million years).
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26-04-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 01:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-04-2015 01:36 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Atheists don't have to defend anything. All they need to do to qualify as an atheist is to lack a belief in gods.

Of course they don't have to defend anything, no more than theists do, or people who believe the earth is flat do. You can hold all sorts of contradictory, inconsistent beliefs. In fact in a recent pew survey, 1 in 5 self identifying atheists, claimed to believe in God.
Atheism isn't a belief system though. Most atheists are weak atheists, which means they don't hold a belief in gods and they don't hold a belief that there are no gods. They are unconvinced regarding any god claims.

(26-04-2015 01:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And you also hold that people who believe in things like objective morality, moral realism, are wrong.
Are you trying to make the word "wrong" mean a moral wrong?

The equation 2 + 2 = 5 is wrong, but it isn't morally wrong.

I don't actually consider people who believe in objective morality as being wrong, I personally disbelieve in moral truths and I feel that those that do have a burdon of proof on them to prove that these moral truths exist. I can't prove them wrong, so my stance is one of lack of belief rather than believing that they are wrong. But this context of "wrong" is different from the context of "morally wrong".


(26-04-2015 01:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Depends on your definition of wrong.
I claim that nothing is morally wrong so I easily avoid this "problem"

Sure, but it doesn't seem that many people here follow in your foot steps.
That's fine, I don't mind being in a minority.

(26-04-2015 01:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Some people claim that causing suffering is wrong so hence wanton cruelty would be wrong in their minds - no god required.

Or in other words causing suffering is wrong simply because they don't like it.
Sure. They have decided to make a personal claim as to what is wrong based on their own likes, empathy etc.

Your Christian belief is that things are wrong if your god doesn't like it. You are just riding on the coattails of what you believe your god thinks. Your moral system is subjective to the whims of your god's opinion.

(26-04-2015 01:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yet many of us would claim that torturing a baby just for the fun of it, is wrong,
Yes, some people have decided for themselves that they are going to define wrong as something that harms humans.
Being human it makes sense that most humans will come to this position.
For a universal perspective it doesn't stand up. The universe doesn't care if we torture babies, ants don't care if we torture human babies. But from a person's own subjective opinion they are free to decide for themselves that they think it is wrong to torture babies.

(26-04-2015 01:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  and that the "wrongness" here is not subjective like we might say when someone puts on the "wrong" shade of lipstick, but "wrong" like we'd say of 2+2=5.
most moral relativists would consider a stance of "torturing babies is wrong" as being a subjective stance rather than an objective one.


Even in your belief system, if there was no god would you then consider torturing babies as wrong? If not, then you are claiming that torturing babies is wrong because god claims that it is wrong. This means that it is subjective to your belief of your god's opinion.
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26-04-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Who said anything about every atheist? I can't even say every atheist doesn't believe in God, because apparently 14% of them do.
If atheist means lacking a belief in god then how can an atheist believe in god?
Perhaps some people ticked the wrong box for a laugh?
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26-04-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 03:31 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Regarding the 70 foot tall pink unicorn, there is absolutely no evidence that one exists currently, but I would be careful in saying that it would be impossible for one to exist. We are in the very beginning phase of genetic engineering/modification....who knows what might be possible in a hundred years (or a million years).
Also, whose to say they don't exist on another planet somewhere?
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26-04-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 03:31 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Regarding the 70 foot tall pink unicorn, there is absolutely no evidence that one exists currently, but I would be careful in saying that it would be impossible for one to exist. We are in the very beginning phase of genetic engineering/modification....who knows what might be possible in a hundred years (or a million years).

Matt

I take your point and i can give you a concrete example. Before 1698, everyone in Europe believed that swans were white. Dutch explorer Willem de Flamingh sailed up what is now known as the Swan River (he actually named it) and discovered black swans.

But you've switched from what is observable to what might happen in the future,

And you haven't addressed my question...should I treat the statements "There is no god" and "There is no giant unicorn" with the same degree of (dis)belief?
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26-04-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 03:10 PM)Dom Wrote:  I also went through 50 years of my life as an unbeliever. I just identified as atheist a few years ago.

Now that sounds like an interesting distinction worth pursuing.

#sigh
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26-04-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
I'm a Doberfreak. My sister has always had Shepherds.

They're both beautiful breeds. I love them both.
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26-04-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 03:51 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  But you've switched from what is observable to what might happen in the future,

And you haven't addressed my question...should I treat the statements "There is no god" and "There is no giant unicorn" with the same degree of (dis)belief?

Short answer is yes. God and giant unicorns are both silly propositions when there is no evidence to support them.

As far different degrees of agnosticism....I don't think it's useful to talk about it that way. If I "don't know", then I simply "don't know".....it doesn't do any good to talk about "more" or "less", "not knowing." At the end of the day it's still "I don't know."
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26-04-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 04:10 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(26-04-2015 03:51 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  But you've switched from what is observable to what might happen in the future,

And you haven't addressed my question...should I treat the statements "There is no god" and "There is no giant unicorn" with the same degree of (dis)belief?

Short answer is yes. God and giant unicorns are both silly propositions when there is no evidence to support them.

As far different degrees of agnosticism....I don't think it's useful to talk about it that way. If I "don't know", then I simply "don't know".....it doesn't do any good to talk about "more" or "less", "not knowing." At the end of the day it's still "I don't know."
Animals exist, a unicorn is supposed to be an animal.
Horses exist, a unicorn is supposed to be similar in form to a horse.
Horns exist, think rhinos and narwhals.
Giant is a perception of size, but dinosaurs were considered giants.

A giant unicorn appears feasible.

A magical omnipresent all knowing creator god defies all understanding of physics, biology, evolution, information theory...
There is no precedent for any creature with any similarity to what is considered god like.
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