From Deism to Atheism
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26-04-2015, 04:46 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 01:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-04-2015 12:52 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  I was a nonbeliever by the time I entered high school. However, it wasn't until years later that my study of science, religion, and mythology led to my current atheism.

What was the difference between this "nonbeliever" period, and your later atheism?

The latter was an informed decision.
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26-04-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
I was raised catholic, from primary to elementary school went to a catholic school. Went to secondary school at a pilot science high school and i started thinking about religion. Especially when i saw the catholic hierarchy interfering with secular government here. I started thinking, these are men, and flawed as they are they do not represent god. I guess subconsciously i knew this didn't excuse them nor the god i believed in back then. I started becoming a deist, more as emotional support than anything else. I still clung to that crutch that there is something unknowable out there, greater than all of us. This persisted all through university and through the first few years of working. Then the scandal hit. Child rape in the house of god. This made me realize it isn't only in my country that the catholic hierarchy was corrupt and hypocritical. It was here that i passed through to apatheism, but almost at the same time i discovered TTA, started listening to podcasts, and realized that religion is not as harmless as it is made to appear, nor is it excuseable in any way by its moderates and least of all their apologists.


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27-04-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
Deism is the argument from ignorance. "We don't know how the universe started, so a god did it."

Once you realize that there is no difference in the argument from ignorance for deism and the argument from ignorance for theism, it is pretty easy let it go.




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27-04-2015, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2015 10:55 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(26-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Your Christian belief is that things are wrong if your god doesn't like it. You are just riding on the coattails of what you believe your god thinks. Your moral system is subjective to the whims of your god's opinion.

I didn’t realize you knew what my Christians beliefs are, but sorry to disappoint you, but this is not it.

But to give you a brief summary. Good and God are not divisible concepts. Good is not a product of God’s will or opinion, but who God is. If you’re not sure what that means, then all you need to know is that I hold a view of God, expressed in Plato’s allegory of the cave: “in the realm of the knowable the last thing to be seen and with considerable effort, is the Good, but once seen, it must be concluded that this is indeed the cause of all things, of all that is right and beautiful.”

Quote:But from a person's own subjective opinion they are free to decide for themselves that they think it is wrong to torture babies.

No, they’re not free to decide if torturing babies just for fun is wrong, anymore so than they’re free to decide if 2+2=5. The wrongness of it, is not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact.

Quote:most moral relativists would consider a stance of "torturing babies is wrong" as being a subjective stance rather than an objective one.

I was speaking of moral realist, not relativists.

Quote:Even in your belief system, if there was no god would you then consider torturing babies as wrong? If not, then you are claiming that torturing babies is wrong because god claims that it is wrong. This means that it is subjective to your belief of your god's opinion.

Or in other words, if I believed there was no Good. If I did believe this, than I’d have to assume things such as the perception of wrong, is nothing more than some biological sensation, like my distaste for pig feet. I’d be like you, and hold that there is no morality. I’d also have to consider how we came to our conceptions/illusions of morality, of moral law, the basis of our value judgements, etc.. Perhaps by theorizing on the extended religious influence and indoctrination on culture and society.

I often tried to consider this alternative, even here, but it usually ends in a dead end. With atheists finding this alternative even less believable than I do, and often deriding me just for even suggesting it.

Quote:Atheism isn't a belief system though. Most atheists are weak atheists, which means they don't hold a belief in gods and they don't hold a belief that there are no gods. They are unconvinced regarding any god claims.

Well, theism is not a belief system either. It’s why you can have non-religious believers. But there’s a difference between atheism not being a belief system, and belief systems dependent on atheism. There also some beliefs systems that a better suited, more consistent, for those who don’t believe in a God of some sort, or some sort of monism, higher power, etc…, which typically more educated, more considered self-identifying atheists tend to lean towards.
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27-04-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(27-04-2015 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But to give you a brief summary. Good and God are not divisible concepts. Good is not a product of God’s will or opinion, but who God is. If you’re not sure what that means, then all you need to know is that I hold a view of God, expressed in Plato’s allegory of the cave: “in the realm of the knowable the last thing to be seen and with considerable effort, is the Good, but once seen, it must be concluded that this is indeed the cause of all things, of all that is right and beautiful.”
If you believe that god was the cause of all things, of all that is right then you must believe that god created "right" hence he defined right from wrong.
Hence you try to adhere to his personal subjective whims.

(27-04-2015 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:But from a person's own subjective opinion they are free to decide for themselves that they think it is wrong to torture babies.

No, they’re not free to decide if torturing babies just for fun is wrong, anymore so than they’re free to decide if 2+2=5. The wrongness of it, is not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact.
Torturing babies is not a mathematical or scientific equation. There is no universal truth as to whether it is right or wrong. The universe doesn't care. The rightness or wrongness of it is a matter of opinion.


(27-04-2015 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Or in other words, if I believed there was no Good. If I did believe this, than I’d have to assume things such as the perception of wrong, is nothing more than some biological sensation, like my distaste for pig feet. I’d be like you, and hold that there is no morality. I’d also have to consider how we came to our conceptions/illusions of morality, of moral law, the basis of our value judgements, etc.. Perhaps by theorizing on the extended religious influence and indoctrination on culture and society.

I often tried to consider this alternative, even here, but it usually ends in a dead end.
What dead-end did you come to? I haven't found any dead ends. Maybe you could bring one to my attention or I could resolve the issue you found?

(27-04-2015 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well, theism is not a belief system either.
But theism is built on the belief that gods exist. There is no evidence for gods, you guys have a belief therefore it is a belief system.


(27-04-2015 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But there’s a difference between atheism not being a belief system, and belief systems dependent on atheism. There also some beliefs systems that a better suited, more consistent, for those who don’t believe in a God of some sort, or some sort of monism, higher power, etc…, which typically more educated, more considered self-identifying atheists tend to lean towards.
Sure some atheists choose to take up the belief systems of Bhuddism or Satanism these extend beyond atheism but still qualify as there is no god or gods.

"Atheism" is merely a lack of belief in gods.
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27-04-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
I can't even tell what is being argued or how it ties into the OP anymore. Did this somehow shift into an argument about the definition of atheism? Consider

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27-04-2015, 02:11 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
Don't you have to pick one , regarding theist or atheist? Because it's a question of belief, isn't it yes or no? Do you or do you not, believe.
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27-04-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(27-04-2015 01:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you believe that god was the cause of all things, of all that is right then you must believe that god created "right" hence he defined right from wrong.
Hence you try to adhere to his personal subjective whims.

Nope. The Good, even in Plato’s view is uncaused. It’s not a whim, or a product of God’s personal preferences, it’s who God is. It’s why we say God is Good, rather than God does Good.

Quote:Torturing babies is not a mathematical or scientific equation. There is no universal truth as to whether it is right or wrong. The universe doesn't care. The rightness or wrongness of it is a matter of opinion.

You mean according to you. Not according to believers, or moral realist, or anyone who rejects relativism.

So yes, for me torturing babies for the fun of it is wrong, in an objective sense, in a factual sense, and not a matter of opinion. If you were torturing babies just for the fun of it, there is something truly wrong with you, a derangement, a delusion, a sickness, unlike a person who holds a different opinion on which shade of lipstick works best.

Quote:What dead-end did you come to? I haven't found any dead ends. Maybe you could bring one to my attention or I could resolve the issue you found?

We could start with this. Most people don’t perceive the “wrongness” or torturing babies for the fun of it, as a matter of personal opinion but as a fact. Why do you think that is?

Quote:But theism is built on the belief that gods exist. There is no evidence for gods, you guys have a belief therefore it is a belief system.

We could play this a variety of ways, all leading to a series of uninteresting ends. I could argue, that my theism is built on a lack of belief in ontological naturalism, a lack of belief that life is full of sound of fury signifying nothing. Or we could say if your atheism is based on there being no evidence, for God, than your atheism is a belief system, "a belief that there is no evidence for God". And that your lack of belief, is just the flip-side of this.

I don’t really want to have this argument, because it’s usually boring. And I rather just stick with the questions of morality.
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27-04-2015, 03:26 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(27-04-2015 02:02 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I can't even tell what is being argued or how it ties into the OP anymore. Did this somehow shift into an argument about the definition of atheism? Consider

Well the OP wasn't an argument. I was just curious as to why folks who might have at onetime identified themselves as a deist later abandoned it for atheism. Nearly all the folks who responded to the OP, stated they clung to deism for "emotional support", a way of believing that someone was watching out for them, and not for any particular rational reason.

Some interesting arguments broke out along the way, and we just continued them.
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27-04-2015, 03:33 PM
RE: From Deism to Atheism
(27-04-2015 03:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nope. The Good, even in Plato’s view is uncaused. It’s not a whim, or a product of God’s personal preferences, it’s who God is. It’s why we say God is Good, rather than God does Good.

But the "definition" still exists apart from your god, or you would not have to use two different words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
As long as the definition is used at all with respect to your deity, it's then basically meaningless. If your god *is* good, then Reality has always had to be larger than your god, and that's not a good thing for "infinite creator" deities. Tongue .. Weeping

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